From what it appears, they only care that their comms didn’t explain the changes well enough. No realisation that the changes themselves, not only the comms around them, are what is driving the rage.
I partially disagree there. I think they’re upset that the whole user community saw through their comms like the flimsy pane of glass those comms were. There wasn’t a better way to say it, so they said it as well as they could, and we are now calling them out on it.
I really do feel for the comms group. There was zero way they could have done this that did not result in the inevitable uproar. I believe they thought they said it well enough that it wouldn’t result in the players taking down Jita with tidi for three days, but everyone had to know that the response would not be kind.
From EVE Online
“Nullsec moneymaking activities should be generally competitive with one another, and therefore pay out more than equivalent activities elsewhere”
“There should always be another hill to climb, and players should never want to look back”
“Cost is a useful variable to tune but an unwise thing to rely on to enforce scarcity or balance - players will always be richer than you think”
“Making something tedious will not stop players doing it if it’s very clearly the best option. They’ll do it, and they’ll hate it”
That was ten years ago. They had a few wise employees back then who were able to turn things around after the summer of rage. Keep unsubbing! Maybe we can find some talent within CCP again.
3 Likes
As a solo miner I’ve spent the last week trying to work out what about this update upsets me, and I think I’ve finally nailed it down. I can sum it up best by stating that this update badly curtails the ability of a solo miner to succeed and profit. There have been statements made by representatives of CCP that solo or independent miners are valued, but I’m afraid I just can’t see it from the proposed changes.
Removal of the drone mining bonuses from the Orca and Rorqual will render them much less effective as miners without a lot more extra work running a compressor, which still doesn’t get them back to where they were. Ultimately, I understand the desire is to turn them back into Industrial /command/ ships, not miners as they are now, but the problem as a solo player is that I will likely have to go back to Barges/Exhumers as the changes make Orca’s less efficient and appealing due to the requirements to run the compressor for the drone bonuses.
Barges and Exhumers have serious problems as a solo player, and if you’re flying one, you’re going to die. Yes, you can mitigate this somewhat by aligning to stations and running the instant anyone enters local, or warps close, but that means your only option is fleeing and constant paranoia. The only hulls that stood a chance against being ganked were the Skiff and Procurer, and their ability to tank is being lowered, rendering them vulnerable as well. If I’m losing a ship regularly, then my profits are gone replacing and re-equipping it repeatedly, not to mention my implants, if I dared to put any in while flying these. On top of that, their holds are mediocre, so you’re constantly flying back to unload, which is extremely frustrating.
The core of the issue is that the changes that have been proposed heavily favour one playstyle for mining, and that’s being in a fleet, probably being boosted by a command ship. Yes you can take your chances flying an exhumer or barge by yourself, but how long are you going to keep playing if you’re replacing it over and over, or being driven off whatever you’re mining constantly by rats or gankers? How long until you get frustrated and give up because you’re never managing to get ahead?
You said in the news article you want to provide clearer progression to the mining path, but the problem is that the path for solo progression is badly stunted. You start in the venture, train for barges, train for exhumers, and then it just stops. That’s all you get, a class of ships with bad survivability, that feel like their only purpose is to mine in a fleet, and no options for progression now that the Orca is being reworked.
I’ve seen people ask repeatedly in this thread for a large hull dedicated miner, and I’ve put together two ideas for one. Please be aware, I copied most of the Orca’s stats outright, other than turret mounts and slots, as I don’t feel comfortable trying to truly balance them.
The first, the Everest class Deep Space Miner, is based around the idea of sitting on asteroids/ice/gas filling large holds and sending drones after anything that comes to kill you, while tanking their damage. Will it be able to fend off a dedicated gank attack? No more than an Orca can now, but a casual ganker is going to have a bad time, and fending off rats won’t be too risky.
With three turret points for mounting mining lasers, and a decent spread of mid slots it’ll be easy to build for tanking, while the limited low slots means mining laser boosts are going to be hard to get, and you’re going to be slow filling those large holds.
The second, the Matterhorn class, is based around being cloaked, sneaking into a location, mining fast to fill the holds it gets by default, and then getting out again.
Starting with only two turret points, and one more high slot for fitting the cloaking device it isn’t as quick to mine as the Everest out of the box, but the bonuses as you level your deep space miner will help, along with the extra low slots for fitting mining laser boosts.
As you’ve probably noticed from the sheet, neither can be affected by command bursts. This is designed foremost as a solo mining vessel, and I’ve done my best to make it less useful in a group to compensate for the bonuses that it’s getting. (Sorry, no fleets of Everests boosted by an Orca or Rorqual, Barges/Exhumers still need a purpose). By making the drones suffer penalties to mining, which I borrowed from the upcoming Endurance changes, I’ve put the focus on drones as a defensive measure, and not for mining.
I honestly do not think these are perfect ship designs, or that they are balanced, but if nothing else they hopefully provide a starting point to add another playstyle to mining.
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This dude should be the one designing the industry ■■■■ for eve.
But it’s obvious CCP doesn;t want “Progress”, they want to kill the game. Thems just the breaks.
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Far from it, they want more real-money purchases. C’mon CCP, just be honest with us.
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CCP, I advise you to do this, add compression of ore, moon ore and gas like this hour on Rorkual, add that for Orca and Porpoise. Don’t touch the drones if you only add more loot to them per cycle. Return all ores to zero sectors. I think that many will support me in this game. And you will be respected and paid for your work, but what you offer is the collapse of EVE onlene.
Bump.
And please keep minerals in R4 moons. These minerals are the basis of operation for my group of Highsec Carebears.
We’ll live with just about everything else in this proposed patch, but no minerals for our weekly moon mining fleets literally means no weekly moon mining fleets.
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I don’t think that follows. Anyone who looks at this set of changes as they currently stand knows full well it’s not ending scarcity.
You say that, yet I’ve got a mid-tier Orca fit saved right now that shows a total value of a fraction over 2b ISK. That’s 1.5b for the hull, 500m for the fittings. Throw some things into the cargo holds, fill it up with ore, and it’s easily 1b worth of stuff that can drop.
I think they’re removing the R4 materials as they can also be mined in nullsec and want to stifle that industry as much as possible.
But the issue is for the players to get the same ISK/HR mining this material after the change they’re going to need to multiply the Materials in the moon ore by at least 2x to makeup the loss of the T1 Materials.
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Why? Why add the compexity of a waste mechanic if you’re just going to give a specific amount out anyway?
This is like saying “Right now, I have two chocolates, and I wish to gift them to a friend tomorrow. In order for me to have two chocolates tomorrow, I must eat one and buy another one”.
Of course, the most direct sensible path would be to just keep the two chocolates…
I agree. Each day I post a couple of grumbles about this issue (removing minerals from R4 moons) not so much from an economic perspective (there are heaps of ways to make isk in the game) but rather from the social impact it will have a for a few groups.
My group of Carebears ranges from 120M+ SP through to “just started last week”. We take in newbros and we donate to Mike’s Magic School Bus. We’re 24/7 in terms of the timezones that we’re active, and we all look forward to our weekly moon mining feeding frenzies as a social activity.
We’re by no means the dominant play style in highsec, but it’s our play style, and we’ve put a lot of energy over the last three years into building a community.
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I know , we know , you know, But he’s a CSM , he “pleaded” them to not say it was an end to scarcity cause he had first hand knowledge of this that we did not “know”. Is why i said that.
Hehe, as the CEO of a small corp of less than 10 people , I was somewhat intrigued by the concept of moon mining, yet the more i looked into it the less and less i was interested. There’s so many issues with it.
I’m a miner , i’m an industrialist, i do research, i just got into R&D and going to be making some T2 stuff eventually. R4 from moon i “believe” grant access to some materials that i will require for T2 production… But then i have to weight what moon mining implies for me… “I” will be buying the station , I will be buying the core, my corp will be eligible for wardec (yay small corp getting wardec woohoo), the running cost of keeping a station running (i have no idea) , it’s in the billions i’d have to invest for something that’s not even worth it in the end. I’d lose so much more than what i would gain in return…
What is even the point of high sec moon mining now ?
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It largely comes down to opportunity cost.
CCP has introduced R4 Materials into the production of T1 ships, the consumption of this material is already not great as capital mass production is not occurring as it is unprofitable.
If CCP removes the Pyerite/Mex from the ore’s that only supply R4 Minerals that ore then has to be mined exclusively for that, the profitability of these ores would have to increase some other way for many to consider mining the material. These changes would certainly result in the price of R4s increasing as they are currently a partial byproduct, this is going to result in a price increase of all products requiring these materials, and as stated previously capital production is largely halted across new eden, there is no profit in building many of the capital ships. If capital production were to become profitable with the existing material requirements the demand for these R4s would increase and so would the price. The issue is the price of capitals being so high has reduced the demand, so we’re sitting on a long term market inversion that isn’t doing the game any good.
As a high sec miner how do you feel about the orca/rorqual mining nerfs, as well as the changes to barges.
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CCP, I advise you to do this, add compression of ore, moon ore and gas like this hour on Rorkual, add that for Orca and Porpoise. Don’t touch the drones if you only add more loot to them per cycle. Return all ores to zero sectors. I think that many will support me in this game. And you will be respected and paid for your work, but what you offer is the collapse of EVE onlene.
Well Rorqual doesn’t affect us as we can’t bring those in high SEc…
For the Orca hmmm getting locked in place by the CiC if we want to get the drones bonuses it’s not great , with the changes to belts being spaced out too far from each other it’s become a pain to mine efficiently they’d have to increase the mining drone velocity by 200% at least when using the CiC…
As for barges… the hold is too small to be worthwhile compared to an Orca for solo mining. even if they increase the yield by 5000% i would not be interested if after 4 cycle i have to jettison a can or fly back to the station.
The Rorqual doesn’t directly affect high sec miners but it indirectly affects them as it is a platform that competes with it.
I think the hulk should have closer to a 20km3 ore hold, also the EHP needs to be increased so its not as easily to be ganked.
I really don’t understand the nerfs to the barges in general, the procurer and skiff were the most commonly used barges utilized due to their EHP, then CCP reduces their fitting, base ehp, changes the bonus, and manages to nerf the other barges/exhumers in the process.
Orca’s not being a miner are going to provide a large field of barges for gank targets, also orca’s become an easier gank target with the cores as they will be stuck in space.
Jita Protests will resume this weekend, if you enjoy the game and dislike these proposed changes please join us in shooting the monument.
4 Likes
Another statement of his in this interview that I find funny is this:
Like, ‘Cool. I’m just getting cheaper Battleships.’ But there’s a lot of victims, there’s a lot of people out of a job
That is really funny considering that CCP drives producers out of business with the repeated spreading of Gnosises and Praxises that dominate the killboard stats. Plus, they are so out of balance that you can have an insta warp Gnosis.
Sometimes I really wonder what is going on in “Snorri’s” mind…
