Thank you for underlining so many great issues in detail and support .
If i understand it clearly, waste is minus for asteroid, not yield. I dont know, but this might be good. But what is the reason to nerf procurers tank? This would be cheaper to gank miners. Or what is going on with changes to ore frigates? Prospect seems useless now, without gas harvesting bonus. Nerf to orca yield is not smart too in my opinion. Orca now have yield similar to retriever or something about. But need a lot of skill points to train in drones etc. and is nice end game goal for miner like me. Overall this is āfrom extraction to povertyā and will take away a lot of fun from mining.
No release date given, but presumably December since the changes are live on Test right now.
That may be, the formulas for yield werenāt easily discoverable for me, so havenāt calculated.
What is known is that hulkās base hull yield is 5% better for ore, crystals are at least 5% better, (5% better + 20% reduced cycle time in type B crystals), tech II core boosts are 4% better.
Whether you used tech II miners before could also drive some other yield improvements - I never did other than mercoxit. they required too many skill points, were too difficult to keep stocked and used too much nocxium for me to want to build them myself. That will be changing reducing the maximum number of crystals down to 5.
I donāt think the yield improvements provided by not needing to move, attributed to hulk and covetorās greater range, or the greater effective storage capacity of a rorqual with goo compression can be measured until actually doing it.
But given that it is moon goo which is finite, what is the weight of possibly mining slightly less than one rorqual when you can mine more sitting in the same spot? Moving a mining fleet to a different athanor even once costs you a lot, at least if its R16+
You understand it clearly. The waste is to the rock. That being said, it still hits overall yield. Rocks will give the same yield in the belt, but if you then compress in a station, you lose 10% - a net loss.
You can compress in a ship and only lose 2-5%, but it is still a net loss with T1 gear and/or drones.
With T2, you get more from the rocks (less waste), so thatās going to result in an improvement. It also means you are much juicier gank bait in HS and/or need a constant supply of new crystals tho - always a trade off.
Think of it this way, theyāre doubling the size of the rocks. So a rock that gave 100 units now has 200 units. For each unit mined into your hold, at least part of a unit is lost to space - one whole unit lost to space with T1. So at T1 you mine 100 units, and the rock loses 100 units to space. At T2 you mine about between 30 and 60% more, so that will be where you get a gain. The rock still has 200 units overall, but your gear defines how much of it goes in your ship, and how much goes into space as dust.
For new folks, this is a problem, because corps will not want them mining in fleets where they could āloseā 30-60% of the ore compared to more skilled members with T2 gear. For vets who solo in a porp, orca, or rorq, you now lose between 3 and 10% - because mining drones are āT1ā in terms of waste, so same number of units of mined ore as today but you lose part when you compress.
Multi-boxers who run their own 1-person mining fleets with T2 gear and compression in-the-field will get more ore/ice/etc. Everyone else is going to lose at least some amount - either because theyāre new and are unwelcome in mining fleets (especially for moon ore), or they donāt have the ability to run a fleet solo with multiple accounts.
Edit: Iām not saying this is a definitively bad thing, if the goal of CCP was to drive more multi-box Omega subs, then this is a great way to do it. If the goal is to have new folks avoid mining, this is a great way to do it. If the goal was to āend scarcity,ā this was the absolute worst way to do it.
3 Likes
So i tested the changes on the Singularityā¦ the belts have a different spatial distribution similar to moon belts. Mining with drones in an orca however is as painful as beforeā¦ the 100 % waste is too muchā¦ I understand the botting problem, but even legit solo miners wouldnāt think it is worth to plex the orca account just for thisā¦ I also didnāt see much increase in the yield or mining range of barges from the orca boostsā¦ I noticed the waste was only working for drones and not working on t2 crystals as i didnāt get any wasted material from mining with a barge. The drone mining however is very disappointingā¦ you can nerf the yield but make it at least somewhat viable to solo mine in an orcaā¦ I feel like a waste probability of 1 is too muchā¦ a waste probability for orca drones should be around 0.7 imo. Just make it a bit easier for solo orcasā¦ as it stands right now, it is the same as during scarcity, which doesnāt make any sense given that scarcity is supposed to be ending. Improved boost is not really that noticeable. the improved boost range is nice, but not everyone has several accounts to mineā¦ so for those people, these changes donāt improve anythingā¦ also the difference between ore and ice holds capacity is annoyingā¦ since before, I could fit more ice in a retriever than after changes. Overall I like the changes, compression module is greatā¦ but either reduce the wastage on drones or just increase the rocks a bit more so people donāt have to constantly sit there and watch stones disappear in a virtual space.
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This is speculation, and probably a false narrative. No one is going to care how much is wasted unless its an alliance or corp owned asset at which point it doesnāt benefit the individual miner to be there anyways, but at the same time, the corp or alliance is still going to want to get the ore off field
Theyāre already there?
In the previous post i was mining without an industrial core as i didnāt know i can fit oneā¦ maybe add to the Orca description the fact that it can use the new industrial core and compression modules. Using an industrial core increases the yeild on barges from 28 to about 31 m3/s and increases mining range for brages from 31-34kmā¦ i would like more range on the strip miners however with the 114 km boost range you can mine pretty much anywhere in the belt and use a Tractor unit to gather the cansā¦ Managing the compression module is a bit of a chore atmā¦ it would help a lot to get the ore directly from the ore hold. Also industrial core increases the shield boost range, however, it is difficult to fit a large shield booster with the new modules.
CCP, Sisi and Exel look horrible.You had 2 years for this.
Two fuc years!!!
I understand the thirst of Pearl Abyss to get $$$.
But , Pearl Abyss, instead of nerfing everthing in order to get more people to buy plex, you sould try to make more money from this game in the long term by investing more time and efford. This game has a lot of potential.
BTW the exel and SISI reminds me when u have an exam and you start studying the day before.
Im done for now.
1 Like
If you are going to add more high slots to the orca, you will need to give it more leeway with the CPU at least(power grid is rough as well).
At the moment, the fitting room on it makes it very difficult to fit it as an on grid compressor and support ship. As such, itās hard to make fits that will particularly be useful in LS, NS, or WH as it is very hard for it to do both support and compression due to the restrictive fitting. It basically cannot have remote reps as a result either.
I am not sure why the fitting has been nerfed so hard at this time. To combat HS mining I guess? But as a result it struggles to function as an actual mining fleet support ship. Or at least one that isnāt basically stripped of all tank. And I would hope the goal isnāt to force players to have a separate fit/alt that is solely dedicated to compressing(thus making it better to keep off grid).
It is worth noting that the primary reason the orca is used in HS so much is mostly due to its resistance from ganking. It is not necessarily due to its mining output. In contrast, barges are particularly susceptible to gankers, something that is possibly going to be more prevalent with the tank nerfs as well. (Not sure what the intention is there) Unless we get like a T3 mining barge or something.(could be the new final tier modular miner, leaving the support ships to stay as support)
The orca is very much in a similar boat to the rorqual where it is hard to justify the benefit for the cost of the hull. Especially since it uses capital parts. And trust me, I would absolutely love to see more orcas outside of HS. The ship is fun, and the new mechanics may make it viable. But there are a lot of shortcoming to it being used as mining fleet support at this time.
Also, as has been said by many, the current loss and compression mechanics result in only a slight increase in available supply while adding quite a bit of tedium/overhead. I have a hard time seeing this resulting in anything other than an increase in material prices. This will result in ships becoming more expensive than they already are. Thus reducing incentive to fly them, resulting in somewhat of a negative feedback loop of content.
I feel the goal should ultimately be to get more players out in space and willing to lose their ships. Increased ship prices is detrimental to that. Either reducing the cost to build, or increasing the insurance payouts are the only two ways to make more players willing to fly and loose ships. As ultimately, the barrier there is the time lost in net isk upon the loss of a ship. Less time needing to farm isk to fly means more time being allocated to fly and PvP(to some at least). This is especially present with T2 hulls. And it also applies to new players, as it will usually take much longer for them to earn that isk back.
I do hope you guys see this.
1 Like
More feedback. Test flown a stock fitted gas venture. It took one complete hour to fill-up that 5000mĀ³ gas hold. I can gain 50% increase switching to a frigate with three turret slots. Unless you (CCP) want to start restricting the fitting of gas modules from non-Outer Ring hulls. I can see that players may just use alternatives.
I would candidly point out that boosters are included in the daily log in rewards. But little else is done for promoting booster production as a career path in New Eden. Choking the options for gas production further diminishes this fascinating area of industry.
2 Likes
The changes to the Procurer really suck. Sorry for being so explicit, but I canāt say it different.
-2 mid slots
Less tank
100% additional mass
-37.5% speed
Thatās insane.
Just leave it as it is.
5 Likes
Problem is a lot of the complaints are not taking all the information into account.
A lot of scaremongering is being put out with incorrect information.
Rorq has always been an over powered money maker, and allowed for bots and gold miners to be in the game. The new changes suggested are to counter this imbalance of gameplay. And bring the industry command ships (including not only the Rorqual, but also the Orca and Porpoise) in line with their description and not over powered solo mining ships.
The suggested changes allow them to compress on the move and at better rates than in station, they have massive boosts to their support role, while still maintaining a mining ability (just not as over powered as is currently).
As for decreased mining rates, this is also incorrect, yes the duration bonuses have be adjusted, but yield bonuses increased, this means yes you mine A little slower, but in the same as before mine more due to the high yield bonus for levels.
Add to this if you use better modules you donāt waste as much of the mentioned +100% bonus resources that is to be added, meaning with the elite modules you effectively double the possible mined able resources available, this doesnāt mean you mined more per cycle, just have more available to mine.
Eg.
T1 what you mine you waste equal amount of bonus resources per cycle.
T2 what you mine you have a 33.33% chance of wasting the same amount of the bonus resources
ORE what you mine you waste 0% of the bonus resources.
Itās a time/risk/reward ratio. Higher isk risk cost you more time, but give 50% to 100% reward.
ā¦ bring the industry command ships (including not only the Rorqual, but also the Orca and Porpoise) in line with their description and not over powered solo mining ships.
The Orca is NOT an overpowered solo mining ship (or the porpoise for that matter). Nor is it being used by botters, or RMTers, I am really getting sick of this BS narrative. At worst itās used by people multi-box afk mining. And in any case, itās not breaking any aspect of gameplay. Quite the contrary it ADDS to the gameplay by at least enabling low effort low reward chill solo mining in HS.
I wont speak to the rorqual, I donāt think there is any argument there that it is slightly OP, but I still donāt believe it deserved the nerf it did. There were other ways the issues with that could have been fixed.
As for decreased mining rates, this is also incorrect, yes the duration bonuses have be adjusted, but yield bonuses increased, this means yes you mine A little slower, but in the same as before mine more due to the high yield bonus for levels.
Add to this if you use better modules you donāt waste as much of the mentioned +100% bonus resources that is to be added, meaning with the elite modules you effectively double the possible mined able resources available, this doesnāt mean you mined more per cycle, just have more available to mine.
This is also somewhat disingenuous. Adding 2x resources DOES NOT INCREASE YIELD, it simply makes up for what youāre wasting over time. Youāre still mining relatively the same pace respective of boosts and other bonuses. i.e. If you mine a rock of x size in an hour now, it would l take you two hours to mine said rock at the same rate with 2x the quantity in these changes assuming zero waste ORE faction modules.
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Why the ā ā ā ā were gas harvest bonuses removed??? In what world was this EVER A BUFF TO INDUSTRY???
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There are fleets that donāt want rookie miners because theyāre too slow with their mining lasers and T1 strip miners. I cannot imagine a situation where those fleets would also be accepting of losing 30% of the yield compared to a T2 fitted ship.
Letās be realistic, Eve players are not always the most compassionate or understanding people. Many times we are, many more times we are not. Anything tipping the scale towards the latter will have an impact on newbies.
I hate to burst your bubble, but in highsec, yes orca are used. Hell there are guides and online fits specifically targetted to AFK mining with an orcaā¦
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Burst my bubble? Lol I said they arent used for Botting as it pertains to RMTing. And they most certainly are not. I personally do not believe AFK mining in HS is a game breaking mechanic.
I agree the rorq is being used as as solo miner incorrectly (as is the Orca) and that part makes sense, but it is not scaremongering to state the yields will decrease except for the max-skilled pilots out there. Remember that you lose 3-18% of your ore/ice/other yield to compression. That has not been accounted for in your calculations, and means that even if asteroid/ice yield remains identical to today (as it most definitely will for drones and T1 fits), you still lose yield when you compress for transport/sale.
Itās a net loss no matter what you do unless you max out all skills and only compress in space in a rorq/orca. Keep the waste mechanic OR keep the compression loss - both of them means nearly everyone loses.