From Extraction to Production

[Josiah_Rynald]

@Kylanti_Hendar

You’ve posted this several times in this thread and it reads like a conspiracy theory.

1. The plex referral code must have been years ago as I’ve never heard of it before.

You should have stopped there. If you haven’t had that much experience in the life of Eve, my post surely wouldn’t make sense to you.

I’d advise you to take a look at the Monthly Economic Reports that are generated by CCP which include statistics throughout the entire history of Eve, then make the case the CCP doesn’t track plex.

It’s interesting that we live in a time where discussion leads people like yourself to dive into this notion of “conspiracy theory” as if anyone that has an actual conversation must have a motive of malice, which is sad, unfortunately.

[Tsumi_Tzestu]

@Decimus_King

Also the CIC is not worth using period. So you will not be locked in space with your orca.

ugh… you know that the mining yield bonus comes from the CiC right ? it’s 100% for t1 and 125% for T2 , when there’s no other alternative that’s the best you can do.

[Decimus_King]

If you do not mine with the drones, that mining yield bonus is useless to you. For boosting the CiC is totally worthless and since I think an orca should not be good in mining in the first place, I do not use mining drones period.

[Quinso_Escalar]

@CCP_Rattati Hey.

You know, I am trying to speak to you as normal as possible.

1. All people who talk about Rorquals being overpowered atm or doesn’t own one, or have no clue what they talk about. Rorquals now, as they are, after like 5 nerfs already, are mining less overall than 2 hulks. We understand that the vision of a rorqual being a flagship, but after 5 years, I don’t really know if it is cool to screw up with your players. We all spent months training into a Rorqual. WE all grinded moths for its price. Now all of these toons are screwed, because of this change. Ok. You don’t like the fact that they were multiboxed, but understand a single thing. Every person, who multiboxes rorquals, is paying you the sub fee and is risking his asset, what is now around 14b out in the space. 3 accounts of rorquals make nowadays like 200mil/h. 3 rorquals are worth 42 billion. Sorry. But 200mill/h with 3 toons for a 42bill asset is a risky move.( i dont speak now about R64 and moon ore. they arent out theyer all the time. I speak about anoms) Since you nerfed resists noone uses supers. The same thing will happen to rorquals too. No more rorqual haunting content for pvp playes. Everyone has the right to train, and use rorquals. Anyone who tells that they are too expensive and much time to learn, was just too lazy to do all the work, what I and many other people did. Training, and especially buying those assets “wasnt a god given” present. It was hard work.

2. the problem isn’t only that you changed yield. You drastically lowered overall yield/h and made non-garbage ships a lot harder to manufacture. I am referring here to t2-3 and faction sub caps too… The 2 changes together are too drastic. If you would keep only one, would be acceptable.

3. You introduced BRM. BRM is BAD. There isn’t enough PvP to let the BRM be at least on a constant 100% in most systems. I won’t count now, but I think at least 80% of actual BRM systems are under 50% due to the lack of PVP. You promised us the end of scarcity. As I see, with this patch our ISK/h will be just worse.

4. If you think rorqual pilots will feel compressing as an interesting thing to do, then sorry to say that, but forget that. IT is NOT. I don’t care if you want to find another purpose to the rorqual that is not good yield, but please, forget the idea of compression, and come up with something else. Something fun. Compression shouldn’t be a hard thing to do. It is COOL how it is now. Who will be willing to keep track of the amounts everyone puts into the rorq to compress it to give it back correctley. It’s not fun. It’s a job. You want Rorqs to be a flagship, without yield, then for example increase its cargo even more, and make its burst even stronger. So they will be out there in null-sec even with small gangs in anoms. Or give it more support/defender capabilities if the barges get dropped.

5. Waste - yet another + mechanic with 0 fun factor. Every system you introduce should be fun. Not another problem. Instead of punishing players (even the word itself is NO FUN), you could come up with a reward system/skill. For example, Let ppl progress for rewards. Who knows… while mining, the higher your skills are, the higher chance you have to proc a small amount of rare mineral from the chunk. OR a % based chance to mine double amount. Change the game in the favour of the players… not punishing them. Trust me. players would take these changes more optimistic, and you would get lost players back too… and it’s even new player-friendly.

6… PLs give us Battle ship sized mining ships. For example a BS what can fit 4 strip miners instead of 2. with greater tank. That could be a positive upgrade that miners woiuld love. HS, LS, NS alike. Every ship will have its role. If you take away gas bonuses from frigs, ppl will use barges for gas. Newer players will have a straight forward plan to advance.

I hope i will get a response about your opinion on these points. Especially the 3-4-5-6 points.

[Tsumi_Tzestu]

@Decimus_King

For boosting the CiC is totally worthless and since I think an orca should not be good in mining in the first place, I do not use mining drones period.

Again… this is a YOU thing. I am solo mining , no one else to boost, I’d rather be mining in a ship with a huge cargo than in a ship that mines faster but tiny cargo, it’s way less efficient because of the travel time docking / undocking. I do use mining drones, it’s not like an Orca have the option to fit mining lasers lol

[Decimus_King]

And I can say, in the past 11 months I rarely ever mined alone. In your case the mackinaw should be the ship to look at and not the orca. Which after this patch will be just as effective as the current hulk from my testing.

The fact the Orca is better for your case instead of the mackinaw is the problem they are trying to address. Though maybe CCP should start thinking about a ship after the exhumers to fill the higher end slot of mining as both the orca and rorqual shouldn’t be the high end mining.

[judahnator]

Any word on all the asteroid belts that were removed?

It would seem to me that doubling the ore available in regions with vastly fewer belts than normal is still a net loss.

[Tsumi_Tzestu]

K i’m done arguing. fly safe o7

[Jus_Tice]

I have my doubts that anyone from CCP will read my comment but the chance is even lower if I do not post.

So, my two cents about the changes and the direction EVE is heading right now.

If I have to summarize it in one word: unrewarding.

I think I understand the reason why are you doing this, you want to avoid another Rorqual mistake where players can earn a lot and with that money they can earn even more.

But because the nerfs to income generation the game feels like I have a Ferrari in the garage and at the same time I have a hard time to pay for the fuel because my income is lower and the fuel is more expensive. So I ride my bike instead. Let me tell you, it’s not fun.

You will always face the wealth hoarding problem because there are no meaningful isk and mineral sinks in the game. It was proven in the last 18 years.

Make the game fun again, let it worth to undock our ships. After the war with high BRM the space was full with life, everyone was out ratting, mining and fighting off the other players who came to steal the ESS. Now the BRM is at a juicy 40%, I don’t even consider undocking. The main bank is usually between 10 and 20 million at the end of the cycle. If someone comes to rob the ESS they just leave because it’s so low or we just let them take it, because who cares about 10-20 million isk?

If you are terrified that the players are going to be too wealthy, introduce some tax what you have to pay after your assets each month. Then every player will have a natural equilibrium based on his/her playstyle and playtime per month, they will get rich only to a point what they can support. I think it would be a good baseline to let the average player afford a bunch of subcapitals and one or two capitals if they want to fly that. Supers and titans are at a good place now, they are not trivial to build.

Let’s imagine the following scenario: you introduce a new capital mining ship which is the king of mining, it’s yield is 3-4 times higher than a Hulk. But it can’t mine alone, it has no offensive capabilities, it can’t use PANIC, but it’s stuck in place when it mines. Still able to receive reps so it’s not a sitting duck waiting for the execution. Let’s say the new tax is around 2-2,5% on the building cost for each ship. If you have to pay it in minerals for subcaps and capital modules for the rest (I think thats preferable, it makes much more content) big alliances must mine trillions every month and that amount is just for the upkeep of their current fleet. No tax payed means you can not undock the ship. Let’s say you introduce a new mining site which spawns once a day and only one per region with extreme amounts of ore in it. You have to mine hundreds of billions every day to keep the alliances going. That’s a capital op each and every day to be able to afford your supercapital fleet. Content everywhere. Technically you can do it with barges and exhumers but there is a finite amount of players who like to mine so realistically you will need capital miners to complete that task. That’s a lot of capitals actively used in space and not just sitting on tether. The fleet would consist 50-100 capital miners, at least the same amount of FAXes, a booster, compressing Rorquals and freighters to haul between the miners and the compressors. Then another fleet to protect the mining operation against rats and hostile players alike. A fleet of dreads, carriers, supers and titans to counter a dreadbomb. That’s not solo moon mining. In this case your idea about the wasteful mining crystals suddenly makes sense because you can deny your enemy the necessary resources to run their supercapital fleet if you are the one to discover that ore site first.

Another idea to make players use their capital ships: set BRM so it can be between 100 and 200% then you have a lot of players running combat anomalies. If a haven or sanctum spawns a capital rat, make it jump in and attack the player. After the jump fatigue is over let it jump out if it killed the player or it has no chance to kill it. If it jumps out add it to a pool (the pool should be unique to every alliance). If the pool reaches a certain threshold let those capitals attack the staging citadel. Then you have to fight a capital fleet with your own capitals otherwise you lose a valuable structure. I guess you could see it as a price for living in nullsec. You could delay the attack by killing every capital spawn you can but that needs a lot of effort, pointing those in the anomaly which is not trivial for a titan, killing them also needs a small fleet on standby. With a mechanic like this I can see 25 man battleship gangs filamenting into hostile space to run havens and sanctums to spawn capitals so the enemy don’t have precise data about their pool. Those 25 man gangs you can not ignore, guaranteed pvp again.

Rework the expedition sites. You could introduce new ships, modules, basically anything through them. The latest exploration sites you added are awesome ideas, keep up the good work!

To summarize: make the game high risk - high reward, even if the players make a small fortune every month it’s not a problem if they are losing/paying enough. I would rather earn 20 billion in a month and lose all of it in fun activities than earn 5 billion and keep it all.

[judahnator]

I like the idea is needing to fend off NPCs that want to claim your space.

Maybe make it so higher the ADM the stronger their fleets will be?

[Ramona_McCandless]

Youre…using Rattati as an example…

The man who has made the changes

that you hate

And you think thats something to be smug about?

lol k

[Jus_Tice]

that’s a good idea, it fits the high(er) risk - high(er) reward theme

[Clive_Scott]

@Jus_Tice

Another idea to make players use their capital ships: set BRM so it can be between 100 and 200% then you have a lot of players running combat anomalies. If a haven or sanctum spawns a capital rat, make it jump in and attack the player. After the jump fatigue is over let it jump out if it killed the player or it has no chance to kill it. If it jumps out add it to a pool (the pool should be unique to every alliance).

then you will play with yourself. idiotic ideas

[Khalliya_Stormbringer]

Quinso, I find myself in agreement with several of your points:

1. I do not multipbox my Rorgual, although I have 3 accounts. I mine with my Rorgual while using one of my alts as a “guard”. I also do not bot. I chat with my corp mates, might do some browsing, but I have to keep my eye on intel and local to be sure I don’t lose my very expensive investment. Also to this point, up until yesterday, I was paying for 3 accounts. I’ve unsubbed two of those.
2. Not sure about this one
3. BRM sucks. Maybe I haven’t been in null long enough to really notice, but ratting isn’t a worthwhile way to make ISK.
4. I will not use my Rorq just to compress. I also didn’t skill into it to be a mining booster (original intent or not). CCP made the Rorq the premier mining platform, which is why I skilled into it and bought it. I have no use for a 10 billion ISK booster/compressor. I have no interest in playing a click-fest.
5. I don’t mind the idea of mining efficiency, and I sort of get the gist of what you’re doing with waste. Don’t pretend that this ends scarcity, however.
6. Love this. I’d skill up a BS sized miner that got close to a Rorq.

Thanks for your post, Quinso. We agree on a lot.

[Shipwreck_Jones]

@Qia_Kare
I wasn’t sure how often you checked your evemails, so I thought I would at you here just in case you didn’t log in for a while.

Anyway, I liked your suggestion, and forwarded it to mike and brisc.

[Moko_Musana]

@SheoFapped

I don’t think you should nerf Ventures and T2 variants in regards to gas mining, seems unnecessary. Mining barges they would have to get into are in no way entry-level mining ships for new players, removing this bonus from these frigates destroys gas huffing in wormhole space with them, something that was not broken to begin with and gave new players who ventured into wormhole space the alternative, as well as veterans the alternative without having to invest in more expensive, easily gankable ships.

This more likely originates from players that try to gank gas huffers in low sec. Unlike in wormhole space, gas sites are “hard” to scan in low, and with the ventures being small, they’re also hard to scan in case you attempt combat probing them. It’s just so hard to get your “well deserved” miner killmails … if only CCP forced them to use large-signature slow-aligning barges, eve would be so much more fun to play.

After failing to grab Frigates and Barges for hours, and then getting clapped by gate guns when they finally found an Orca autopiloting the final 10km segment to a stargate and engaged it immediately rather than bumping it away from the gate first, the claim is made, that all miners are always afk (hence the wannabe-gankers keep failing to tackle them on grid for hours) and/or bots (that hit f1 whenever they see a miner).

[Richter_Talon]

The Mack is a great ship, that’s impossible to tank well. HS Gank Squads are running in a minimum of 5 cats for the alpha strike. In a Mack, you’re dead even in 0.7 or 0.8.

Buff the Mack and the other barges, and you can fix this - but instead they nerfed the Skiff, which was the only T2 barge you could actually tank.

Edit: Potentially nerfing the skiff, I realize the changes are not set in stone yet.

[Cernac]

@Decimus_King Its not just the rorq nerfs. Compression nerf, amount of available ore capable of being mined ( not Wasted ), skill points/game time lost. The unreal time now required to compress, the unreal amount of complexity introduced. Basically if you have played this game more than 5-6 years your tired of this crap from CCP. They originally started this mess and they just cant figure out a way to quit picking at the healing scab which is Industry in this game. The introduction of Skill Injectors, their favorite pay to win plan, I can go on and on. How do you think these players with multiple rorq pilots got them so quick, and you think CCP didnt see this coming?

[Moko_Musana]

@Richter_Talon

There are fleets that don’t want rookie miners because they’re too slow with their mining lasers and T1 strip miners. I cannot imagine a situation where those fleets would also be accepting of losing 30% of the yield compared to a T2 fitted ship.

Is the loss of those 30% even relevant? Even in scarcity, I barely ever see a highsec to deplete on resources because players mined it all.

When a corps anchors it’s first Athenor and gets it’s first moon pull, it’ll probably be excited over it and try to grab it all, but as the moon pulls continue, miners lose their passion into it, and most of the pull despawns unmined. Or all of it despawns completely unmined, because there was either had too much player traffic in null, a small wormhole to an active highsec in j-space, or an incursion in highsec.

The highsecs and especially the lowsecs are cleared by diamond rats, not by players. Most miners don’t start their day searching and “disabling” the diamond spawns, they just accept the diamond rat activity. If corporation members wastefully mine ore with their t1 gear, that’s still better then the ore getting mined by NPCs

[Derpina_Herplington]

Rather than have waste apply to everything, consider changing the mechanic a little. Have it apply to barges, exhumers, and drones, and instead of being waster, have the resource break down into smaller versions that can only be harvested by ventures and such. That would make it new player friendly.