Everything in EVE can be bought by ISK, and therefore bought using in-game methods that do not require spending money.
Omega via plex via ISK.
Modules and ships via ISK.
If all things are equal, and you are Omega because you paid $20.00 and I am Omega because I spent ISK to buy PLEX to become Omega, and we are in the same ship against each other, with the same number of skills and at the same level, and we have played the same amount of time with the same knowledge and skill and reflexes at EVE, does paying give you any advantage over not paying?
And this is the problem with this argument, and why i didnt miss the point at all.
There is no golden ammo with EVE. There are no ships or modules or PLEX services that can only be bought using real life money and that cannot or are not traded or available on the market, that give any gameplay advantages. All of it can be purchased with in game ISK.
So the only way to make this argument of P2W is if you rely on arbitrarily decided anecdotes.
Re-read my post. I didn’t exclude that if both players’ skills are on par alpha can win. But as an alpha player I have to yet encounter anyone willing to fight me who doesn’t have the relevant skills maxed which makes it impossible to win against him.
For example. Yes. But I mean any 1v1 fighting anywhere, such as proving grounds or duels.
Okay lets break down these killmails, because you didn’t do your homework properly.
No 1: rockets. Thats not the 80km shooting kiter I was talking about. Thats shortrange fit.
No 2: That isn’t the 80km fit either, either way, he was fighting against omega (which is clear from the fact that his killer is flying omega-only ships in recent days)
No 3: Rockets again.
None of the talwar killers were alpha clones. I would dare to say (educated guess) that pretty much no Alpha clone players are attending these events because of the massive disadvantage they are facing. It really is pointless.
You might not know how limited alpha clones are. Alpha clone cannot catch up to omega kiter whose skills are maxed. Alpha clone cannot target him at such range either, while he can. Even if alpha gets in range to target lock and shoot, the skill difference makes it extremely unlikely to win assuming the enemy can shoot at their optimal as well. This is due to the difference in armor/shield and rigging skills. The only chance for alpha is to kite the enemy, which is against the ships that became meta in 1v1 destroyer proving grounds pretty impossible → nobody ran afterburner, so in mwd vs mwd duel its always gonna be omega who catch up. The only chance would be scrambler+web, but that has too short range against short-range meta ships used in this event - coercer, thrasher and rocket talwar. These have their optimal at the scrambler range.
NOTE: I am not saying that alpha clones can’t ever win against omega with maxed skills. It is doable, but alphas needs massive advantage. Pretty much the only option is ganking (where you fight those without pvp fit and who are not expecting it with max dps glass cannon fit) or blobbing.
You missed the core reason why EVE is not P2W. Skill.
I can buy all the plex and omega time for $$$. I can have all the billions and T2 ships and all the titans I want. None of that will increase my skill as an EVE player. No amount of money will make me a better player. This is why EVE is not a pay to win game. The fact money can’t change a player’s skill is the main reason why EVE doesn’t fall into P2W. You are assuming everyone has equal player skill in EVE.
To make it slightly more personal. I recruited 2 credit card warriors and I know many other people who make VASTLY more ISK than me and I have taught them things they have never learned or knew. All their purchased ISK didn’t save them vs a more skilled pvper. More power to people who want to buy boatloads of plex. It will not make you a better player. Therefore there is no advantage to spending $$$ in EVE.
I guess it’s a personal definition for me. I look at games like FPS or shooters where it’s completely skill based. You can’t buy aim accuracy legally in game. Then I look at harder strategy games where it’s not as reliant on a players skill. Hearthstone/Vega Conflict come to my mind first of real hard core pay to win where literally $$$ spent gives absolute advantage over others.
So for me I base my definition off of an absolute advantage money gives to people. Buying plex and SP doesn’t give an absolute advantage over other players. If anything has shown the more expensive ships are clobbered by the cunning people fighting in groups or a solo player who knows PVP tactics.
Since we are on PTW now I will ask this. How can a sandbox game be pay to win? (no real “win” in EVE) Everyone has different wins here in EVE. Some thing plenty of ISK is winning! More power to them. However, some people think starting social movements in EVE is their win. What are peoples thoughts on that rebuttal?
Some people base it off of how things are monetized and I respect their views also. EVE is really in a unique situation where the sub income is barely cutting the line so they need to find other ways to generate income. There is a valid argument that EVE has lost its soul because of CCP selling skill points and even ships! Really undermines the basis of the game to sell ships for $$ even frigates.
Exactly! I can’t tell my self in good faith that this is a pay to win game! More power to people who wanna pay 200+ USD for SP packages and plex packs… Support CCP if you really like them that much. But that SP and plex ain’t going to save you in any situation.
…Or you could both have Omega + ISK, where both have 5 billion ISK and one spends 500m of it on omega and the other pays. In which case, nothing in my statement, changes.
Why would you discount that scenario?
I didnt miss it, because your example of how i did, demonstrated that you had to come up with something that has never existed in EVE, ever, in order to make your point. There are no Golden Ammos in EVE, and if you have to resort to what are essentially straw man arguments, youve lost the argument entirely.
Except that they dont. Most P2W games differentiate their premium currency from their free-accumulation-method currency. And you yourself have acknowledged it by using the word “Premium currency”. You differentiate the fact that the P2W games that we recognize as blatantly P2W have currency systems in place where free players do not have access to the same currency as paid players.
Its really interesting that people like yourself are so determined to prove EVE is P2W that you have to resort to using examples where you rely on the existance of premium currency or premium items that can only be bought by real life money as a comparison to how EVE, which everything can be bought by in-game currency.
I think this game is more complicated than simply labelling it as “its pay to win”. Its the same thing we tell new players. Just because your ship is expensive, just because a ship costs more isk, doesnt mean its better.
Because the “win” means get advantage over others not literally win the game.
I mean you cannot win the game itself and this applies for FPS and RTS games as well as all these games are designed to offer unlimited content.
What you can win is a single match or encounter. And this does apply to EVE as well.
You can definitely win a 1v1 duel, you can win war or anything else where you set some goal for yourself. And in all these instances SP will give you advantage over others. Due to the nature of the game and its age, SP aren’t that clear advantage which is what is confusing you. But it definitely is an advantage. And players are competing in the game in pretty much every area, not just PvE but PVE too. Maybe not directly, there is no ladder which would show who mined the most plagio on server, but this is regulary argumented with in remove ganking threads, so I don’t understand why it suddenly doesn’t apply if we are discussing different matter.
As I wrote in another thread (or was it this thread? I am confused). Using this argument of yours, can CCP even sell anything which wouldn’t be P2W in your eyes then?
If they sell you Halcyon booster 10% which cannot be obtain normally, is that P2W? It won’t let you “win” either because you still need skill and there is no clear contest in which you could win anyway right? Same with selling ships, be it ships you can get normally or unique ships that only must be bought from eve store and same with modules for ships.
go to abyssal arena to have some “fair” fights them
its 100000 times harder than normal fights in low sec
wen you are on the wild you have to fit your ship to pvp various targets , you can know the various weakness , ranges and weapon types of your enemy , plus there is good and bad pilots
in arena people min max like crazy and you probably will encounter some battle hardened alliance tournament veteran to play
and don’t you think , oh its only a 20 million destroyer , you can lose bilions a day on these thing
thats why NO CAREBEAR
i repeat
NO CAREBEAR do arena
the idea of eve is unfair i will like arena is a LIE and before they were introduced i already had said
i also said that arena would not reduce eve pvp because only a fraction of PVP players would do arena , those who like ever changing meta and theorycraft
most (more than 50% at least ) PVP in low sec is consensual , you better put your chips there
I agree, but the main reason why carebears don’t do proving grounds is that even if they didn’t lack in player skill and knowledge area which is extremely important in PvP, they are still usually heavily lacking in actual ingame skills area, which is the second next most important thing there.
I tried to compete as alpha clone and it was just impossible. I could only win if I got matched against another alpha or carebear which didn’t happen and likely won’t ever happen as they are not attending at all for reasons you stated and this reason as well. I am not excluding also a possibility of winning against ship my ship counters, but even that is going to be quite tough to pull of in controlled environment like proving grounds as alpha against maxed omegas.
except they said open world pvp is on the way out and will be removed sooner than later. abyssal pvp arena is where the combat will be as the players have voted and requested.
they are not just maxed omegas
they have the best in slot fits
because they are the type of player that like to min max fitting to perfection
after some time you will se everyone copying the most dominant 1 or 2 fits
Yes I saw it and I could copy it as well, but as alpha that is useless - I will lose automatically in mirror matchup and even against those who are not going with meta and fly something I counter I will most likely lose due to the difference in skills.
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