naaa
because outside of the arena you can bail , control range , you need to point , people are distracted etc etc etc
if you have a web a scram and aftb and the enemy have blasters and mwd you win
in arenas you apear in a no scape position facing the best fit for the rules every time
By player skill, are you referring to actual skill, or character skillpoints?
Most people who duel, are people who have a fit or are in a situation or position where they are more likely to win than not.
Even me, as a decade old veteran omega with hundreds of billions of isk, would never accept a duel off of Jita 4-4, because I dont know if I could win.
This has nothing to do with skills as an alpha or omega, and everything to do with actual player skill and being prepared and smart and sneaky and, in the case of jita 4-4 undock, outnumbered.
Sure, i was typing from my phone so i wasnt looking too carefully. But you and I both know that there are talwar kills with missiles from brawler ships. Infact, heres one.
Infact, the same player wins some and loses some with his Talwar.
So yes, my point stands.
Your argument about this had nothing to do with Alpha, and everything to do with 80km 3k+ speed talwars. And yet your loss has nothing to do with what was more like a 60km 1.8k speed Talwars, and more about a lack of skill and PVP experience.
This character is Alpha right now. But Ill break down each section of your paragraph.
Wrong.
First off, dont forget that Omega or Alpha, you have Cap. And with MWD, your cap will run out far, far faster. If youre good at Cap and MWD management, you can easily catch an Omega.
Secondly, proving grounds are limited in space. Again, good direction can corner your enemy and prevent them from kiting. MWD would prevent them from making tight corners, giving them less leeway than you, and its perfect against missiles because, unlike turrets, missiles will deal the same amount of damage whether you are flying directly at an enemy as opposed to perpendicular.
Difference in skill will only give you around 5km of extra locking range. Thats nothing.
If you have a brawler ship, you will win a dps match against a kiting ship, hands down. But even if you didnt, other ship types like coercers, sunesis, dragoons are doing well too in proving grounds.
No, its not. Its the side that has the better cap management, and cap management is largely skill-based.
Its not just activate MWD and leave it on.
Everything you listed doesnt necessarily handicap Alphas though. Not even the best players will always win, 100% of the time. The “massive advantage” that you speak of is simply an advantage of skill, which has nothing to do with being alpha or omega, because it applies to both Alphas and Omegas.
That is exactly what “it is not fair and you can control the rules” mean. You can also blob ppls with your alpha friends and you can also bring higher ship class to win.
Simply, you can get many different advantages, advantages which you can’t get in controlled pvp environment like proving grounds.
no friends involved
i have a bunch of kills using a meme coercer fit … alpha … cant use all the guns have to turn one off
but some people think they can active tank 7 beam lasers in a t1 frig , and they cant
some people think they can outtrack coercer , but coercer have tracking bonus
some people doesn’t know that coercer have 2 mid slots and with 2 webs i don’t have point , even them they don’t bail
some people take range but don’t realize that amarr can change to long range ammo insta … .etc
Are you honestly going to tell me that in Diablo Immortal, a skilled player who played for 2 months and spent zero money will, even half the time, win against a week old player who spent 300,000 dollars?
Problem is, no one is saying that SP gives ZERO advantage. But it certainly doesnt give a big an advantage as you think.
You keep talking about competing with Omegas in Abyssals or Duels as if its Diablo Immortal and youre the 1 week old player fighting against the $100k 2 month player. Id suggest actually trying to play actual, blatant P2W games and seeing how bad it is. Cause youre gonna get crushed, no matter how long you play or how skilled you get.
i have a pet alt with barely the skills to fly a destroyer , she got some nice solo kills
as others are saying eve is not diablo imortal
omegas have a advantage but if they don’t know how to pvp and you do you can get the kill
but arena is NOT the place
go low sec , join the militia , Oplex
comet is one of the best LOW SEC ships
why the kill?
because i was at 10 km from the beacon , he is blaster fit and clicked aproach
taking ALL MY DAMAGE for some seconds
Player is the person controlling the character hence player skill is what you refer to as “actual skill” obviously.
Sure, duels aren’t fair either.
I never claimed otherwise. I am from the beginning argumenting that alphas are at huge handicap in "fair fightL and stands no chance against maxed omegas which can be easily see in proving grounds. I have yet to see a killmail from proving grounds where Alpha clone won against omega. I am not saying it cannot happen, there are other factors as player skill and that omega players character skill levels (not everyone is maxed), but it is highly unlikely.
None of the killmails you posted were alpha players.
I play as alpha for quite a time and I was in past PLEXing my account infrequently sometimes letting it lapse for a while. So I PvPed quite a lot as both omega and alpha using same ships.
I have armor and shield skills close to max on my main and just the difference in armor skills is extreme. I used active dual armor rep Thorax for suspect baiting and the ship is completely different beast with maxed armor skills and on alpha clone. That is my argument from the very beginning.
Anyway lets break down your breakdown 
Too bad you didn’t attend to this pvp event to show me your wins…
The talwar fit for example is cap stable. Pretty much all kiters are.
Its 8 because alpha cannot use Sensor Booster II, but ok, it is not that big difference. However alpha can only shoot about 60km whereas omega can shoot 80. Now that is significant difference imo.
Yeah nope. Tristan will win against alpha 99% time and he can basically just stay immobile. The dps from drones cannot be tanked without serious bling on alpha. In this last grounds, condiering ships started 35 km off each other and that mwd was a must and considering that alpha can never outrun omega so some manual flying and overheating is needed to catch the kiter, by the time you catch him you will be half dead. Still I suppose it would be possible to win, but definitely not as guaranteed as you think so.
Well you are not dueling ppls, you are not attending proving grounds and judging your killboard it doesn’t seem you are even playing for years.
As such I take my game experience of actually dueling ppls with alpha and attending proving grounds over yours. And these experiences are saying “there is no point”.
I never said the advantage is as big as you think. I am only saying it is there. The alpha vs omega is entirely different argument that has nothing to do with selling SP. I only brought it up as on this comparsion you can clearly measure the impact of character skill levels.
Perfect analogy! This is exactly how pvp as alpha clone feels like. Thank you, couldn’t have said it better myself.
@Lucas_Kell I’m not saying you’re wrong, but before I can agree with anything you write about EvE being P2W, what is “winning” in EvE according to you ? Or in other words, what are the win conditions (with the extra question if these conditions apply to all players) ?
Lucas is just a crybaby.
He failed to do well in EvE, and now he is salty.
Yes, I get that. But what are those advantages that were bought ? Sure, someone can get ISK, or SP, but what does that really result in ?
I’ve had plenty of exchanges with Lucas in the past, for sure. But I also think that players like him still come back to these forums (if not the game itself) because our game is unique and they couldn’t find anything to replace the experience.
And it’s exactly that point where you lose most of us in the debate: an “advantage” that doesn’t lead to a result is just meaningless - the only real advantage being to the person who sold the so-called “advantage” in the first place, not the buyer.
I’d say the only advantages possible in EvE are the ones based on knowledge.
It’s not in a good situation, the eve-offline.net graphs are the giveaway for sure. They’re scary.
And this is exactly the point where, in the past, our little exchanges would become heated and dramatic., because you - deliberately or not - left out the crucial difference between our viewpoints: the above only holds true if the knowledge of both players is exactly the same. Then the one with the higher amount of ISK or SP can translate it into a result (a kill mark, higher profit, w/e). In reality, the knowledge of two randomly picked players will always be different in the complex setting of EvE, so the above will never hold true.
But my concern is not with the value of the arguments being brought forward, but rather the game itself. On a good day, like today, I would compare its current state with something like “the dueling cavalier”.
Enjoy
I would hope so, otherwise why would I spend my money? For every SP I buy I inch an advantage my way. But, would I win for that much? I don’t think so.
So, buying SP ≠ p2w.
No. It literally means Pay to Win.
What you’re lamenting about is only Pay for Advantage. Advantage doesn’t mean Win.
Seriously?
Thats a weak move from the Kasparov jury
This is a hoary old topic at this stage, so I have some pretty well-developed thoughts on the subject.
First, we need to be clear about what people are paying. You cannot fairly criticise Eve as being pay to win for having a subscription payment - this is the fundamental payment structure that the game is built around. Having a free to play element is fine and well, but it is very much in the old-style “demo” space, even though with effort you can upgrade your account to fully paid status.
Second, we have to determine what winning means in an open world sandbox. This is incredibly hard to pin down, as there are so many different ways to play - many of which do not require omega skills, or have so little impact from omega as to be virtually indistinguishable. Further, the most common long-term goals in the game generally require an omega account, but do not need anything beyond this in terms of cash input (i.e. flying capitals)
Finally, there is one element of Eve that is fairly categorised as pay to win - that you can buy Plex or SP from the store to speed up what you would like to do. While this is certainly distasteful in general, as others have pointed out it is rare indeed that someone jumping their character ahead in this fashion survives the experience unless they have sufficient game knowledge before hand. In this way, I would say that Eve’s ‘pay to win’ mechanics are about as balanced as it is possible to be. Certainly I cannot think of more than a couple of other games currently available that have some form of microtransactional advancement feature that does this better.
I guess you don’t know what “literally” means.
So you’re really talking about PFA - Pay for Advantage -
and not P2W - Pay to Win.
You’re crying about something that has virtually ( that means almost, just fyi ) no impact on your play. Again, an advantage doesn’t mean a win.
You will deny that statement in the remainder of your post, like so:
“can’t aim”, translated in EvE as “doesn’t know optimal/tracking/sig radius/transversal” etc, which again is knowledge.
Then again, we come to my very first question: what according to you is “win”. If what the player bought doesn’t let him “win” (which will inevitably only occur in a cherrypicked situation, btw), he didn’t pay to win anything, but the company that sold him the so-called shiny advantage made an extra profit and “won”.
Sadly, the answer again is a resounding NO, unless you cherrypick a situation. Reason ? Unless you know exactly where to put the SP for the skills you intend to use in particular situations - which again is based on knowledge - you’ve just been separated from your money. So, more SP is only an advantage when one actually knows what to do with them. A lot of SP is just like a pile of cash. Unused it’s just a cosmetic, not an advantage.
Moreover, if your opponent has good knowledge but less SP than you, he will avoid particular confrontations, making your investment in an advantage meaningless. It works both ways.
In the case of alpha accounts, if they’re all true rookies with exactly the same amount of ISK and SP, the ones that invested in knowledge will have the upper hand by making better choices and create situations that benefit them, and grow faster in the game.
etc etc etc
That’s not the same as denying there is a potential for an advantage with more SP or ISK, but the condition of sufficient knowledge still needs to be met in order for that to work out. And, on top of this, it only works out if the opponent(s) are cooperative victims.
Now, for old times sake, you can replay the broken record again and again. Then I come back with the funny gifs. Let’s not 
