Ganking and PVP: Numbers in perspective

With all the discussions on ganking and PvP, some people have confused the amount of discussion with the actual extent of the issue. For that and various other badly skewed perspectives, I decided to take a look at some actual numbers.

(This will be more point-form than usual, since topic is so broad.)

Not meant to be scholarly data, just a quick survey. Using Zkillboard for ganks. This is only killmails that Zkillboard picks up and classifies as a gank.

From ZKILL, Ganks since Feb.26, 2018:

  • 32,000 ganks, 60 Trillion ISK lost, approx. 20,000 separate victims
  • Annually, roughly 8k ganks, 5k victims, 15 Trillion in value lost
  • 75,000 gankers approx 600 billion cost, 100 to 1 ratio victim losses to ganker cost
  • 30% miners, 22% haulers
  • 30% at stargates, 20% mining within 3 jumps of a hub
  • Only 9 characters ganked 10 or more times, fewer than 100 ganked 5+ times
  • Most targets ganked 3 times or less. After that, never ganked again? Or just quit?
  • Top 100 gankers avg. about 1250 ganks each
  • Avg. about 2-2.5 gankships lost per kill

Thoughts:
Low number of ganks per victim - either these stone-stupid-stubborn carebears often decried in the forums learn quickly how to avoid ganks, and/or players typically quit after 3 or fewer ganks, and/or the overall rate of ganking is low on a per-player basis. All are true to varying degrees.

Relative Size - as a portion of all PvP, this 4+ years worth of ganking equals about one months worth of all PvP. Ganks make up roughly 1-2% of total PvP activity.

Retention - one active ganker will gank hundreds of victims over several years. Let’s further assume every single one of these roughly 20,000 victims quit because of ganking.
That’s less than the number of players that quit every month before they finish 1 week of play. (Approximately 25,000 per month by CCP’s own estimates.)

PvP:
From Oz’s video on top 10 ships destroyed first half of 2022 (NPC kills not counted):

Losses:
Newbro - Venture 60,725 , Heron 50,499 , Ibis 23,293. That’s 747 “early career T1” ships per day, almost 40% of the top 10.

Cheap - Caracal 42.6k Vexor 35.6k Catalyst 32k Stabber 24k Thrasher 24k - 879 cheap ships per day
Vet - Sabre 30k Ishtar 24.5k - 303 Omega/expensive ships per day

Thoughts:
Cheap - Most PvP is performed in/against cheap, easily fit ships. This applies to the “cheaper ships won’t lead to more PvP” argument some people make.
Noobs not worth killing? - the argument that noobships/noob accounts aren’t worth killing and/or aren’t engaging in PvP appears to have flaws.

In another thread, some people are arguing “PCU down but PvP activity has remained the same” (a supposition backed by zero data):

All killmails from Zkillboard:
June, 2018 497,384 64.5Trill
June, 2022 391,886 43.9Trill
Kills down by 21%. Value of kills down by 32%.

This is in line with every other metric from MERs to CSM votes to Sub counts to PCU activity, all of which show that EVE has lost 20% or more of players, subs and activity since 2018.

No grand conclusions here or anything, just wanted to toss out some actual, factual, food for thought on these common topics.

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I actually got excited reading that.

Good info on the PvP/Ganks/Ships/percentages… very interesting indeed.

Thank you!
Of course, you know that some skeptics will argue those figures, never mind the fact that they’re easily verifiable.
And others will argue your conclusions, even though you make none in the OP :sweat_smile:

I don’t follow PvP very much, just coming back from a couple years break.

Any way to tell how much of ganking or PvP or kills are on the Alpha side and how much Omega? I’m guessing the answer is “no” but I’d be interested.

I can see things like Ishtar are clearly Omega but most of the other ones could be either.

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I have no interest in PvP.

I only engage in PvE against CONCORD versus ships that can’t shoot back.

you do know ganking violates several countries and US states laws against cyberbullying right? you can go to jail if prosecuted by the proper authorities.

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I’m already inside, so what do I care.

Worst case scenario is they put me in the hole for a few days.

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Toxic name youve got there.

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First question, is Zkill a reliable tool in terms of analysis, many gankers do not update it. Also subscribers can opt out.

Second Question, Zkill only defines 5+ on a kill as a gank in hisec, did you realise that this massively undercounts ganks. I noticed that you said this:

But then this:

So it was a bit confusing for me?

@ISD_Traindriver should this be merged into the Ganking Megathread?

Wouldn’t it be possible to fetch the data from killboard and check every gank victim if they lost/killed some ship after 3 months from last gank? That could tell us some data even if not 100% reliable.

Btw your data are skewed since killboard is using some stupid rules to determine whether the kill was a gank or not. There must be like 5+ ships and at least one of them has to post lost to concord for KB to identify as a gank afaik. None of my gank kill was ever marked as such for example, so total number of the ganks will be much higher.

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OZ counts kills, not ganks. While The Venture is most certainly a newbie mining ship it’s also pretty much the best option for low sec and WH stuff done NOT by 2 week old starting newbies. It’s the same with the Heron. Caracals are widely used PVP ships, those losses aren’t newbies being murdered doing their lvl 2 missions being bullied by bad gankers.

The vast VAST majority of those ships are NOT lost to ganking.

Hardly. You cannot really come to this conclusion just by the fact that a lot of ventures and ibises are lost. First of all, some amount of them is going to be lost to npcs. Did he collect only PvP data or all losses? Second, a huge amount of these ships are flown by older players. Especially for so called noob ships, tons of these dies in Jita every day and pretty much none of the pilots losing them are new players. Noob ships are often used to carry some cargo in an attempt to not look suspicious and pass gankers (which usually fails), then they are used to pull concord, or to get rid of killright. What I see a lot is that some players are undocking with suspect/criminal flying these in market hubs over and over getting killed by other players. And the last I can think of is autopiloting with it to avoid getting podded by those pesky capsule hunters, but they often die to npcs/sentry towers.

The very first you should do is to establish a definion of a noob or newbro. If they are players playing under 3 months that I can assure you that these players are almost never ganked. And if they are, transfering 3b in rookie ship, then they aren’t new player are they?

Personally I avoid killing new players as much as I can. For example when I am going after capsules I do check their employment, if they are new I let them autopilot safely to their destination (no point podding them as they won’t have juicy implants :stuck_out_tongue: ). It can of course happen, sometimes the ganker is pointed by evil antiganker and thus forced to kill at least something in which case we often shoot some noob as we don’t have time to check their age. Or our primary target escapes the gank and so in the remaining seconds before CONCORD arrives we try to kill the other guy on the grid if possible as a conservation prize. When ganking ventures I also avoided new players, but I can’t vouch for all venture gankers. I only ganked venture (and she escaped me btw) because I was about to self-destruct to get back to stage system and I had to lose my thrasher somewhere. But I don’t do that otherwise, it is pointless.

You are also mixing two sources here together that are pulling different data. In the first part of your post you are specifying that these are data from killboard with “GANKED” tag. But the video is using as a source all loses no matter to whom. And you are basing those data as your claim to “new players are ganked and quit”. Which is just plain wrong.

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False

I’ve never logged into zKillboard yet my losses are displayed there.

Then I’m halfway from logging in ( not yet logged in ) and it asks for permissions about fits, corporation… nowhere to opt out.

Then I log in now for first time and search for your supposed option.
Nowhere to be found on that website.

Here are the options:
Site Settings
Login Screen

  • Theme
  • Tracker Notifications

API

  • I removed three of those and my profile still shows kills.

Log

  • nothing to chose there.

Payments

  • Payment History. Nothing to see there.

Where is your opt-out option?
I’m guessing it doesn’t exist.

@ISD_Traindriver please do not merge this. The OP has raised some interesting points and to merge it will obliterate any chance of these being discussed in any real form.

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@ISD_Traindriver Please do not merge this thread.
Same reason Ramona McCandless put forward.

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Yes, that’s explained in the zkillboard FAQ:

So even if you haven’t authorised zkillboard to access your kills/losses, the attacker with the final blow and/or victims of your have done so, so the kills appear.

However, Dracvlad is correct that anyone that has authorised zkillboard can opt back out and remove permission to the scopes. It’s in the API page:

Screenshot_20220731_214714

That doesn’t remove previous kills/losses and also doesn’t stop zkill obtaining kills/losses that other parties have authorised for even where you are involved.

Overall, zkillboard only receives 40-50% of all killmails, however for pvp losses, including ganks, it receives a much higher percentage (I’ll go grab some comparisons for common ganked ships between the MER and zkillboard).

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Q: Total PVP activity as in total value all over EVE, in Umpire, null, lowsex?

If so, now I really hate you and your numbers. J/K

But I’m curious… and it’s one of those itching spots that one can never scratch:

I don’t count ISK value, as it is subjective. I can whine for weeks after losing one 50+ km (yep, kill marks), <100mill ship. I think encounters are most important, like that percentage thingy that shows chances of enemy survival? well, that.

Now, if you were a bit like me, where do you think most PVP happens, now that it is encounters what we would be talking about?

And I ask because the other day I made a post regarding destruction and the fact that we don’t die enough (as we should)… from where I had conclusions that this thread may or may not shake like… the ganking scenario as -quasi- most sole PVP option…

And yes… to whatever ISD lurking here: THESE AREN’T THE POSTS YOU’RE LOOKING FOR -these aren’t the posts we’re looking for. IT CAN GO ABOUT IT’S BUSINESS. -it can go about it’s business. MOVE ALONG. -move along! move along!

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Valid question. Before I edited it, I had a lot of disclaimers in the post about the limitations of Zkillboard for this data, what might be missed etc. I also had a paragraph between the “Gank” section and the “PvP” section outlining that they were intended to look at two different aspects:
Ganking losses over a longish period and “What types of ships are players using for general PvP in which quantities”.

However the post was just too damn long and clunky with that, so I trimmed almost everything but the data out with the shortest disclaimers possible. Hence “not scholarly, quick survey, Zkill data as is”. The intent is to get data in the ballpark to see if Ganking leads to a torrent of players exiting EVE, or a small trickle.

Anyone knowledgeable enough to discuss the issue is aware this isn’t completely accurate data.

I believe the merge thread you’re referring to is actually the “Nerf Ganking Megathread” and in my mind, merging every useful topic that ever refers to Ganking in any way into that thread is the worst and cheapest cop-out possible.

Yes that’s why it’s in the “PvP” section and not the “Ganks” section.

This isn’t a conclusion, it’s an observation. It literally says right at the top “NPC kills not counted”, then says so again in the video. We also aren’t talking here about the noobness of the pilots, but the value and entry point (in skills, ISK, fitting) of the ships used.

These are relatively noob ships from that aspect, and they’re clearly worth killing. And ganking isn’t the concern for that point.

Yes, because I’m discussing two different aspects.

As usual, people make this weird jump from what I’m actually saying, to what they assume I’m saying. Don’t feel bad about looking silly, you’ve got lots of company. At any rate, thank you for your interest and your questions, hopefully this has helped clear some of them up.

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The “opt-out” doesn’t apply and might as well not be an option.

I don’t really care about it. Makes me feel like my character does exist even outside of EVE and that’s pretty cool but don’t tell me players can opt out because they can’t.

Which is about 22 a day. But the real problem is this, which I encountered yesterday…

A noob in the corp commented on the 320 or so kills in Uedama during the day, as if all those ship losses were ganked ships. Wow…320 gank victims ! But, of course, that is not the real picture at all. In reality just 9 ships were ganked in Uedama that day, and all the other kills were Concord response to the groups that contained up to 50 gankers.

So the true stat is that 9 ships were ganked…and 311 ganker ships were destroyed. Which is a revealing stat in terms of how much collective effort is now required to gank at all.