Ganking and PVP: Numbers in perspective

[Wes_Wyhunnan]

@Kezrai_Charzai

Eh, well, apparently in the opinion of a prolific and professional ganker, merely engaging in PvP at all is sufficient to establish expertise in it.

I mean, it helps. Even if the person who was complaining about ganking had been ganked, that’s a great start. Even if their entire killboard was mining barges and freighter losses in hi sec, that’s at least an indication that the individual undocked and took risks and has an actual stake in the development of the game.

The frustration for me, and I suspect some of the other posters in this thread, is the very cyclical nature of a poster who comes on, launches the same exact arguments, has really no proof they actually play the game, eventually flames out by calling other players basement dwelling psychotic incels who lick windows, and then vanishes again. Only to be replaced by a similar account a few days later. That person constantly expresses a deep understanding of the game with a hidden “main” character who they are too frightened to reveal, but can’t actually provide any evidence of that.
Everyone else who posts, me, Aiko, Ax’l, tutucox, etc, is an actual character in the game. You can look up my killboard and corp history and know exactly what I do and where and whether I might have any actual experience with what I am talking about. We would just like the same transparency with other posters.

[Ax_l_Thorne]

@Kezrai_Charzai

understand the entire game and how “complicated” their “setup” is because they shot some unarmed targets in high-sec.

The setup itself isn’t that complicated. And lets be honest, most pvp setups aren’t. However what does add up in the complication department is calculating out the amount of DPS needed (and thus the number of ganking ships needed) to effectively take out the target before CONCORD arrives without going too far over and wasting isk, and consequently the timing of the gank adds another level of veritably.

I have group ganked with Aiko and Friends. There is a lot prep involved.

I have 2 questions for you, and it’s not meant to invalidate your position or argument, but have you ever solo and group ganked before?

[Altara_Zemara]

@Wes_Wyhunnan

Even if the person who was complaining about ganking had been ganked, that’s a great start. Even if their entire killboard was mining barges and freighter losses in hi sec, that’s at least an indication that the individual undocked and took risks and has an actual stake in the development of the game.

You should know by now that killboard, especially theirs, is totally irrelevant and they never ever look at that awful place…no, sir…um, except when they want to highlight some gank and then all of a sudden killboard is totally relevant.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

When I came back from a RL break about 3 years ago, they brought up my lack of kill board activity all the time, even though I’ve been a long-time poster before that, and despite the fact that I never bragged about my in-game accomplishments, merely advocating for a pro-PvP viewpoint.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

yikes

We should all just post our account activity feeds to see who’s being the real baddie with the report button.

I have a feeling though that a few particular individuals aren’t going to be so keen to go along with the idea.

[tutucox_Khamsi]

i never report
i think is a rat move

[Clone_Nr007]

I love Carebears… oh and turtles too

[tutucox_Khamsi]

but that is a pig
I’m confused

[Clone_Nr007]

I’m the dancing pig

[Elizabet_Forgrave]

@Wes_Wyhunnan

Everyone else who posts, me, Aiko, Ax’l, tutucox, etc, is an actual character in the game.

So is everyone else that posts here. You deciding that they don’t count because of their killboard stats or because you decided that they are all one person with zero evidence of that doesn’t stop them being an actual character in game.

What it really comes down to is when someone has an opinion you don’t like, you don’t want to discuss the topic, you want to find some way to attack them instead. Everyone here has a right to be here and a right to an opinion on the topic.

@Destiny_Corrupted

We should all just post our account activity feeds to see who’s being the real baddie with the report button.

I think I’ve only flagged a couple ever, where does it show up?

[Clone_Nr007]

@Wes_Wyhunnan

Everyone else who posts, me, Aiko, Ax’l, tutucox, etc, is an actual character in the game

I’m an actual character in the game too. Every character is a character in the game.

@Elizabet_Forgrave

What it really comes down to is when someone has an opinion you don’t like, you don’t want to discuss the topic, you want to find some way to attack them instead

Standard modus operandi in any forum.
No one’s fooling anyone here, even if they think they are.

And this is my main character in-game.
It’s pretty sad that forum members have to mention if the character they post with is a alt or main, then be told they are liar and having to prove things like this forum is a court of law. It’s pathetic.

[New_Order_Enforcer]

The Ganking Problem has been fixed. It is time to close this topic.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Elizabet_Forgrave

I think I’ve only flagged a couple ever, where does it show up?

Click your portrait in the upper right, then the arrow on the bottom:

@Elizabet_Forgrave

zero evidence

The thing about evidence is that it’s literally impossible for such evidence to exist in an environment that allows for complete anonymity. In a perfect world, CCP wouldn’t allow alt-posting at all (and limit Alpha accounts and players in war non-eligible corporations to only certain forum sections like tech support), and that would remove the need for these debates entirely. But they don’t care, so the forums are a cesspool.

Personally I don’t particularly care, but also (as an example) the forensics engine I use gives you over a 97% match with Defi Natalie, so I don’t bother engaging either. It’s just pointless. Engaging in these false-flag debates just isn’t that interesting compared to absolutely destroying something a genuine carebear like DMC would write, and then enjoying watching them squirm and call me names and such.

If I had to bet twenty bucks, though, I’d say you’re that person who wrote those ridiculous things like CCP “turning off PvP next month” or EVE “being down to only 500 subscribers” etc. I quite enjoyed those posts, and how so many people seemed to bite on them.

[Elizabet_Forgrave]

@Destiny_Corrupted

Click your portrait in the upper right, then the arrow on the bottom:

Mine shows nothing about flags, does it normally show something in there?

@Destiny_Corrupted

In a perfect world, CCP wouldn’t allow alt-posting at all (and limit Alpha accounts and players in war non-eligible corporations to only certain forum sections like tech support), and that would remove the need for these debates entirely.

I agree with the perfect world, I’d love them to do something like that. I don’t agree that there’s any need for these debates though, even without them doing that. It’s only ever used as a distraction. I’ve never seen someone with well thought out counterarguments present their case then say “Oh and I think you’re an alt so your don’t count!”. It’s always people with nothing to add to the topic that go down that line.

I’m not sure what forensic engine you’re using or what data you’re feeding it but it sounds broken. To me most of the people on here sound similar because we’re all using the a lot of the same terms and frames of reference.

I can say hand on heart that I posted neither of those things. I don’t think they will, neither do I want them to turn off PvP. I don’t want them to turn off ganking. I’d be fine with it staying as it is, but I agree with the stance CCP has take that it would be better if ganking were aimed less at new players and more at lazy blingy veterans.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Elizabet_Forgrave

I’m not sure what forensic engine you’re using or what data you’re feeding it but it sounds broken. To me most of the people on here sound similar because we’re all using the a lot of the same terms and frames of reference.

There are many fairly accurate analytical/statistical ways to determine this, such as rates of verb/adjective usage, sentence length, punctuation consistency, verbal level of difficulty, and even how the nationality and social caste of the writer affect word order (e.g. saying “I escaped quickly” versus “I quickly escaped”). It doesn’t just deal with specific terms, or frames of reference (which aren’t really possible for a program to analyze anyway).

@Elizabet_Forgrave

it would be better if ganking were aimed less at new players and more at lazy blingy veterans

This is already pretty much how it’s always been, but the debate is moot because there’s no concrete data that supports that one style of ganking is more beneficial (or less harmful) than another.

I will say that retention is likely more positively correlated with the net loss amount than with player age. Anecdotally, whenever I’ve made big kills in wars, the rate of instances of those players never logging in again was much higher than when the kills were small, regardless of player age. I’m saying this as someone with close to 2,000 lifetime solo kills alone.

Most new players don’t get ganked, but the new player retention rate of the game is terrible regardless. Anyone who wants to see the actual reasons why new players don’t stick around should read Steam reviews, where mentions of ganking by new players are very rare.

I believe that veteran players who quit the game because of major loss events, and then proceed to attack the game publicly because they have a grudge, have a much greater impact on EVE’s new player retention rate, and the public’s perception of the game in general.

[Mindrago_Aldent]

@Wes_Wyhunnan

Everyone else who posts, me, Aiko, Ax’l, tutucox, etc, is an actual character in the game. You can look up my killboard and corp history and know exactly what I do and where and whether I might have any actual experience with what I am talking about. We would just like the same transparency with other posters.

This is my main, the one I biomassed over 2 years ago when I didn’t like the direction the game was taking, I biomassed all 3 characters.

I gave everything I had accumulated over 6 years or so to Mike and Uriel.

Because of a couple of recent changes I decided to have another look and asked CCP very nicely if I could recover my accounts, which they did. So I subbed via an offer for 3 months to see what had changed.

Nothing at all has changed on the forums lol.

So just because you don’t see a kill board, don’t presume players don’t know anything and shouldn’t comment.

[Io_Koval]

If I understand charitably, it isn’t “silence others” it is “participate fairly and transparently”.

I have gotten a lot of flak from the last time I tried to push for transparent and honest community participation. People — well, certain specific alts — have a vested interest in portraying it as “look Io is trying to silence people” instead. All I can say is at the end of the day when I pushed specific individuals to confirm with their main who a posting alt was, the only person to do so was from the ganking community.

Just sharing an experience.

EDIT: Technically, another community member also said something to the effect of “I have so many accounts none are my main”, which technically fulfilled the precise question asked at the time, but violated the good-faith spirit of “let’s make sure we can participate honestly” as they didn’t divulge precisely the names of all those “many accounts” when pressed further. This sort of toying with other community members is objectively bad-faith participation, and that is what members of community push back against. Not to silence, but to bring to light.

[Kezrai_Charzai]

@Wes_Wyhunnan

The frustration for me, and I suspect some of the other posters in this thread, is the very cyclical nature of a poster who comes on, launches the same exact arguments, has really no proof they actually play the game, eventually flames out by calling other players basement dwelling psychotic incels who lick windows, and then vanishes again. Only to be replaced by a similar account a few days later. That person constantly expresses a deep understanding of the game with a hidden “main” character who they are too frightened to reveal, but can’t actually provide any evidence of that.

I get that, sure. Just keep in mind a couple things:

• In an open public forum, you can’t really control the ‘quality’ or good intent of the other people participating.
• The people I see complaining about certain individuals tend to be the ones who argue with them the longest for the least benefit. Yes, it’s exhausting and irritating… just like arguing with trolls in Help chat. Any troll/flamer/thread-junkie is there for the argument - don’t hand it to them.
• Flagging the post and moving on is much more effective than arguing against it.

And let’s not forget here, that the “ganking is good” side is just as prone to lies, exaggerations, statement of opinion as fact, derailment, and pounding threads into closure by incessant off-topic replies. The post counts and threadlocks are there for anyone to see. It takes two to argue.

Frankly, I also roll my eyes a little when the “HTFU and learn to love the gank” crowd keeps falling back on “I don’t like the way this person argues, ISD please ban him!”.

I mean, seriously guys… HTFU.

[Aiko_Danuja]

Nope.

[Kezrai_Charzai]

@Ax_l_Thorne

but have you ever solo and group ganked before?

In the spirit of an honest reply to an honest question: I’ve solo ganked, back in the days when wardecs were a little more lively than they are now, and certain targets would join a corp to get in a few kills, then quit out when they started getting hunted. Ganking at that point was the only option, since bounties were useless.

I didn’t do it much, because I found the entire process of locating, getting there, tracking them down, only to find they’ve logged off in the meantime, incredibly tedious.

I’ve never group ganked, profit ganked, or ganked for laughs. The notion of seeking out unarmed or effectively defenseless targets is completely pointless to me. I don’t need the ISK, I’m not the sort of personality that gets an ego-boost from punching down, and I don’t have any group I dislike enough to go shooting fish in a barrel.

If you check my replies on the issue, they’re based on measurable statistics, actual situations, recorded kills, historical data, etc. I don’t need to participate in a group gank to know that 3 tornadoes ganking a hauler for a 2.1 billion ISK drop = profit, and it’s not really relevant how much prep was involved, how much their heart was pounding or how “tricky” it is to manage the scanner alt and the 2 loot scooper alts (OMG the complexity!) to make sure they get their loot.

As for the details of the process, there are hundreds of videos available to anyone who finds the activity tiresome and lame.

I personally don’t begrudge other people from ganking - if they need the ego boost, the ISK or the social element, fine by me. For me it’s simply an issue of what sort of design mechanics lead to more and more interesting gameplay, and what mechanics lead to less of everything.