Ghost in the Shell - Genetic Memory and it's effects on Immortality⁸

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Ghost in the Shell: Genetic Memory and it’s effects on Immortality

By: Simon Malcov Louvaki
Published by Scientific State, a subsidiary of the Hyasyoda Okusaika
04.24 YC 124

::REVISED AND RESUBMITTED on 04.25. YC 124::

============ [Section I] ============

RE: Synapse Burnout and relation to genetic memory in Capsuleers

The advent of capsule technology has broken the chain of life and death and ultimately the continuation of genetic memory in that particular strand of human DNA. To quote statistics from CONCORD:

“Only 14 percent of all those who apply are able to make it past prescreening into basic training, and only around 5 percent of those manage to make it through the entire program and go on to become capsuleers. Prospective candidates must satisfy a broad range of criteria, including but not limited to: 20/20 vision, perfect hearing, blood pressure within a highly limited range, peak physical conditioning (able to run at least 60 kilometers without pause), a complete genome profile that excludes any possibility of genetic defects or hereditary disease, ninety-eighth percentile intelligence, a degree in a sufficiently advanced technical field, and, provided no grants or scholarships are in the picture, an enormous amount of money. Above all, the candidate must possess an ability to keep his mind working along several different tracks at once, giving full attention to all of them simultaneously.”

To become an immortal, one must be at the peak of natural human evolution, so much so that on a galactic scale it is akin to a bead of sweat dropped into the largest planetary ocean. Why is it then that so many of that small number seem to go mad or otherwise suffer from psychosis?

To examine this one must first have a layman’s understanding of just how the technology implanted in our brains works. To put it simply, the trans-neural echo burn scanner [TEBS] implanted within our skulls fires a pulse which captures and creates a downloadable engram or ‘snapshot’ of the users’ brain at the moment the capsules hull integrity has been breached and downloaded into a clone grown from our own genetic material. This is what we call Synapse Burnout, as it isn’t the destruction of the capsule that kills us, it’s the implant in our brain that effectively scorches our organic matter in the process of creating the engram. In other words, we kill ourselves, regardless of mitigating outside factors.

Official data from CONCORD puts the transaction between death and renewed life in a clone vat to be nanoseconds, creating what is in practice a single continuance of consciousness. For many capsuleers, particularly those in war zones, experiences what would otherwise be generations of life in perpetual continuation having never ‘truly’ experienced a grizzly death unlike their baseline crews. This publication however will show that despite the artificial immortality granted to humanity by Capsule technology we are not wholly free from the effects of a death we never experience.

To do this, I will first establish the foundations of my argument using the scientific and psychological theory of genetic memory and follow with supporting evidence through observations of capsuleer behavior that I posit is directly linked experiences the brain experiences and is thus captured by the TEBS prior to capsuleer rebirth.

============ [Section II] ============

RE: What is Genetic Memory

The concept of genetic memory is an utterly fascinating topic.

On a broad scale we are introduced to a theory in which sets of memories are inherited at birth but are absent of any associated sensory data which has been incorporated into the genome over vast expanses of time. [1] In ancient societies and even some modern-day religious institutions this is explained with mysticism, such as guidance from God in Ammarian Theology or the Winds in Caldari Wayism. Such notions of having understandings and instincts without firsthand knowledge has always been an enticement to humanity and as we have advanced in apprehension as a universal race, we have pushed the bounds of human understating beyond the superstitious veil.

Examples of genetic memory can be found across both human and animal species. For example, a study conducted by scientists of the Science and Trade Institute found that the gene known for producing perfect pitch was found in higher concentration among the native population of Caldari Prime where pitch is critical to the spoken word of Nappanii than anywhere else in the Caldari State. Psychologists explain this by noting that while Nappanii is spoken by billions across the entirety of the State, it is found in significantly higher concentrations on the Caldari home world where the language is not just primary but near exclusive among its denizens. This contrasts with the greater cosmopolitan State where the nature of Caldari business practices require the knowledge of sometimes dozens of different languages and dialects. [2]

Furthermore in the study “Absolute Pitch, Speech, and Tonal Language: Some Experiments and a Proposed Framework” by Dr. Dianna Deutch, Trevor Henthorn and Mark Dolson provides additional sampling which “[…] describe two experiments in which native speakers of tone languages— Nappanii and similiar Caldari derivatives—were found to display a remarkably precise and stable form of absolute pitch in enunciating words. We further describe a third experiment in which native Amaarian speakers displayed less stability on an analogous task. Based on these findings, and considering the related literatures on critical periods in speech development, and the neurological underpinnings of lexical tone, we propose a framework for the genesis of absolute pitch […]” which highlights how the Caldari people as a whole exhibit a penchant for perfect pitch compared to the other races of New Eden. [A1]

Another example, this time in animals, was found in the adaptability of the Amarrian Fedo. Discovered by Amarrian colonists in the caves of Palpis their ability to serve as organic disposal units as well as exist for extended times in a vacuum made them popular on Amarrian starships as a cheap means of sanitation maintenance. With a lifespan of only a few weeks, this encouraged the mass capture and breeding of these creatures almost exclusively on ships and stations far away from their natural habitat. [3]

Khanid researchers from Hedion University completed a study comparing the adaptability of Fedos born in their natural environment to those born exclusively on stations and ships. What that study ultimately found was that when planet side Fedos were incubated in the unfamiliar environment of space stations and ships their survivability was significantly lower than in their home world environment. In contrast when the spaceborne Fedos incubated back on Palpis there was no significant difference in the survivability despite having never been exposed to that environment prior. [3][A2]

In that study researchers found that “[.…] that while many mutation-induced phenotypic changes were necessary when the animals first adapted to the environment of space ships and stations, plastic changes largely transformed the transcriptomes to the preferred state when space faring Fedos were brought back to their ancestral environment.” [A2]

These are just two instances of genetic memory; however, they serve as distinct examples of how the concept is applied in nature. One could even go as far as using this as an explanation for mankind’s inherent uneasiness surrounding the ‘uncanny valley’ which is further supported by observations of Saamelaiski Basin Rabbits who’s young seem to associate the musk of the predatory Kenko with danger without having ever been exposed to such a theat. [4]

============ [Section III] ============

Re: Death within life

With an understanding of what genetic memory is, we now pivot to how it affects the Immortal capsuleer and their tendency to develop psychopathy. How could genetic memory play a part in such a development when the requirements for being a capsuleer is physical and psychological perfection? The answer is astoundingly simple; It is caused by the fragments of death that compound upon each other as genetic memory carried over from each synapse burnout that ultimately simulates the death and birth of generations and the trauma that ultimately is carried forward with each burn and subsequent death.

Despite never ‘experiencing’ mental or psychological death, our bodies do in fact die and each burn is captured in even minuscule scraps of data. The TEBS implant does exactly as marketed, but in the end can not shield the overall mental state of the capsuleer forever. Consciousness is never ‘broken’ as far as the capsuleer is aware, but there is no way of eliminating the experience from the brain. With the rate of death and rebirth among capsuleers we begin to witness just how quickly this genetic memory begins to affect the overall psyche of the subject.

The manifestations of this genetic memory, now turned genetic trauma, vary widely depending on the capsuleer, the circumstances of death, and how many times the capsuleer has died. My research team and I have observed combat veterans in particular suffering from post-traumatic stress disorders despite their lives never being truly endangered, which we believe is the result of the brain recognizing that it has died innumerable times without the capsuleer themselves ever having the experienced a break in consciousness. Others, such as I, have developed a number of physical ticks such as hand tremors without any physical disabilities having existed prior.

In an interview with Scope News, Professor Marcus Pembrey of the Center for Advanced Studies had this to say - "It is high time public health researchers took human transgenerational responses seriously.” with regard to topic of genetic memory and the effects it has on future generations. Proffessor Pembrey was speaking on the results gathered from the previous referenced rabbit and Kenko experiment, stating further that the research was “highly relevant to phobias, anxiety and post-traumatic stress disorders.” [A3}

Where others simply believe that capsuleers lose touch with reality by virtue of their immortality alone, I believe we are still human and deserving of answers rather than simplistic platitudes. The answer I’ve found can be explained in how our brains collect experiences that are then transferred and relived through each subsequent cloning regardless of our overall awareness.

============ [Conclusion] ============

The danger should be evident now. The compounding experience of death after death and psychological scarring carried forward through innumerable clones ultimately changes the very baseline DNA of the person being cloned until it ultimately becomes an irremovable part of the capsuleers very being. Much as how the rabbit inherently knows to fear the smell of the Kenko the capsuleer will become genetically predisposed to psychopathy.

In conclusion I believe that by understanding the role genetic memory plays in both animals and baseline humans we can better understand the inevitable decline, we capsuleers seem doomed to experience by preemptively addressing the underlying psychological issues that are carried over from each death that don’t manifest until it is often too late and becomes genetically embedded in our very DNA.

============ ============

= = = = = = = = = = =
About the author:

Born in the Khanid Kingdom, Dr. Simon Malcov Louvaki is a graduate of the School of Applied Knowledge, Research Associate with Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquires LTD., Executor of Louvaki Family Holdings LLC and C.E.O. of the Sengokuvaa Kaltiovon. As a capsuleer he was awarded the Muruyia’s Wings for his service to the Caldari State during the Battle of Caldari Prime and has since devoted his wealth and efforts into furthering scientific research for the betterment of humanity.

Dr. Louvaki is also author of The Cost of Freedom which examines the complex social and political ramifications of the Matari Emancipation by Empress Jamyl Sarrum.
= = = = = = = = = = =

[1] Rodolfo R. Llinas (YC103). I of the vortex: from neurons to self. MIT Press. pp. 190–191

[2] Reference: E. Glenn Schellenberg, Sandra E. Trehub (YC110). Is There an Caldari advantage for Pitch Memory? Music Perception, 25 (3), 241-252 DOI: 10.1525/mp.2008.25.3.241

[3] Reference: Ho, Li, Zhu and Zhang. (YC122). Phenotypic plasticity as a long-term memory easing readaptations to ancestral environments. Science Advances. DOI: 10.1126/sciadv.aba3388.

[4] Reference: Callaway, E. Fearful memories haunt rabbit descendants. Nature (YC115).
h ttps://doi.org/10.1038/nature.2013.14272

REFERENCES IN ADDENDUM: Post original additions to the publication resulting from peer scrutiny.

[A1] Deutsch, Diana; Henthorn, Trevor (YC106). “Absolute Pitch, Speech, and Tone Language: Some Experiments and a Proposed Framework”. Music Perception . 21 (3): 339–356. doi:10.1525/mp.2004.21.3.339

[A2] Herdon University. “Past is prologue: Genetic ‘memory’ of ancestral environments helps organisms readapt.” ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 22 May YC 122.

[A3] Interview with Proffessor Marcus Pembrey with The Scope in (‘Memories’ pass between generations - Scope News)

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So, @Simon_Louvaki, since you invited and asked for comment :
(and to everyone else who knows me, you can’t say you saw this topic and didn’t know I’d be commenting. You knew. :stuck_out_tongue: )
== [Section I] ==

  1. We are not immortal.
  2. Evolution has no ‘peak’. It is not a directed process seeking a ‘higher’ form, it is an amalgam of situational responses to environmental (natural and otherwise) pressures that only ever (and very much without intention) favors ‘did you breed? Good enough!’
  3. CONCORD’s official data may claim nanoseconds, but that’s under ideal conditions where both ends of the transaction are taking place in optimal conditions, including close proximity. In practice, the process has been measured as taking up to 5 seconds, depending on local conditions at the site of death.
  4. We experience a grisly1 death. Once. We just don’t remember the final experience of our predecessors, and our successors won’t remember ours.

== [Section II] ==

  1. Genetic Memory is woo. Memories are not inherited. Conflating memories (sequences of neurons firing in specific ways to reconstruct past events) with things that are not memories does not make them memories.
  2. Genetic predisposition toward certain capabilities or chemical responses to certain stimuli are not memories. The example cited, of the genes for perfect pitch being more prevalent in native populations of Caldari Prime, is a perfect example of this: At some point, clear communication reliant on perfect pitch conveyed an advantage in breeding—either a survival advantage, or a social one, as individuals were selected by mates because of this quality.
  3. Similarly, the fact that space-born fedo show adaptation to their new environment without maladaptation to their former is not ‘memory’, genetic or otherwise. It only means there’s been no selection pressure to lose certain traits over the insanely short amount of time fedo have been in space. Absent a strong reproductive advantage, we’d expect exactly that simply because evolution, like all natural processes, conforms to the path of least energy expenditure.
  4. Similarly, the predispotion to respond to the olfactory chemical stimulus of a certain predator’s musk is also not a memory, but rather, a chemical (hormonal) response to stimuli that at some point increased the chances of surviving long enough to breed, and so propagated through the population.

== [Section III] ==

  1. Even if genetic memory were not woo, capsuleers would not be experiencing it. Our bodies are recreations made from sculpted generic biomass. We’re not genetically ‘us’, at all. We’re meat-golems, with brains of equally generic matter, flash-grown onto a standard framework (which includes a new burn-scanner), to match the last recorded brain-state of the deceased.
  2. The burn itself is not captured in the data. For one thing, as the physical and chemical response to the flash-burn is predictable, it’s easily filtered out by the TEBS firmware itself. Second, that chemical response takes time, and from the subjective point of the generic biomass brain the TEBS is embedded in… it doesn’t have that time. Even when the process can be shown to have taken several seconds of NEST to occur, the local relativistic effects such as time dilation that give rise to that delay also means the effects of the burn are similarly dilated.
  3. This is not genetic memory. This is memory. It has nothing to do with genetics, as genetics are not preserved from clone to clone. Again, we’re made from generic biomass. They don’t have to flash-cultivate 200 kilos of ‘you’ if you decide to install a ‘jump-clone’ and activate it (a process that takes, what, 4 seconds, max?). What you are describing is not a relic of capsuleer deaths. It is a relic of capsuleer lives. Not the endings, but all of the things that come before.
    Why do things like new ticks manifest? Because of the trauma your predecessor’s brain-state inflicts on the new biomass when they boot the new ‘you’ up. When your predecessors experienced events, their meat had time to adjust, to stew in the hormonal soup and find a new equilibrium between their brain and the rest of the meat.
    Think of it like… a piece of tritanium armor plating. When it’s made, it’s hot as hell. But then it slowly gets to cool off… accelerated, maybe, by a number of industrial processes, but very carefully within a cast or mold, under tolerances that don’t produce negative effects, until it ends up mounted on a ship and happily chugging along in the vacuum of space. That’s your predecessor: the things that happened, happened, but they happened in ways that didn’t produce ‘physical disabilities’.
    Now, you? Take that same molten trit… and throw it into the vacuum of space. It will cool… eventually… but it won’t be in that nice, pristine lattice that creates useful armor. It’ll be a disjointed mess, and probably scattered by magnetic fields and radiation long before it cools enough to solidify, what with the lack of convection, and all.
    Your predecessor was a frog, happily cooking in a slowly-heating pot. You, on the other hand, just got thrown into the boiling water, all abruptly and crap. It’s not the deaths that traumatized the new meat. It’s the lives. And ain’t nothin’ genetic about it.

== [Section IV] ==
(The Conclusion you didn’t break out into its own section the way you should have.)

  1. Obviously, we’re still functionally human. Being capsuleers doesn’t take that away from us. Being essentially cheap, disposable, and quick and easy to replace doesn’t, either—that’s basically been the life story of most of humanity for most of humanity’s existence, after all. But there is something that is inherently dangerous and damaging to our sense of humanity, our morality, and our mental health. It is the lie of immortality.
    Convince someone that they are immortal, and they begin to lose touch with their humanity. The longer they buy into that utter nonsense, the more they tend to think of themselves as removed from the masses, superior, special in ways that make them better than baseliners. It damages our capacity for empathy. Killing gets easier, becomes a game for many. It’s not the only way that kind of damage happens, obviously, but it is a way that it happens.
  2. The ‘very baseline DNA of the person being cloned’ isn’t touched. It isn’t used. Our bodies aren’t really clones of our original iteration, they’re just… generic, and bio-sculpted to match our records.
  3. The rabbit doesn’t ‘know’ to fear the smell of the Kenko. It has no awareness of ‘this is why that smell is scary’. Chemical stimulus provokes chemical response. That’s it. No awareness/knowledge required.
  4. The authors of the various studies do neither themselves nor readers any favors when referring to these effects as ‘memory’. They conflate the retention of capability and predisposition of response to encoding of data, and because they’re operating in a biological framework, the presentation chosen casts this nonexistent data encoding as a latent cognitive effect. It is neither encoded data, nor cognitive effect. It is simply the preservation of physical characteristics, no different from retaining the shape of a limb. You don’t see any of them claiming that bilateral symmetry is ‘genetic memory’, though, do you?

1. Having nothing to do with any legendary ursines, but rather being horrific and disgusting.

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Referring to section two point five of your quite thorough rebuttal, the practice of Ida supposes an aetheric connection to past life impressions. Where feelings and experiences stored in a grander higher order energetic field than that more commonly generated by gross matter are accessible by those with an attuned nervous system.

I myself have not experienced this connection although I have attempted to achieve such for quite some time.

Otherwise, we are of similar opinion.

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Yup. And when there’s any empirical evidence to support those claims, maybe someone will present it.

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Have you considered a role in GalMil Arrendis?

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Shifting this to Off-Topic, because it is.

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@Arrendis

I welcome any and all discussion and debate with regard to my publication. I’m certain we can agree that if a theory or idea can not withstand scrutiny and dissection in good-faith then it doesn’t deserve life. In that vein, I appreciate your response and welcome your critique.

[Response to Section I Critique]

1.) Semantics. Any of us can a suffer a number of life ending circumstances outside or even inside of the pod that would render the safety provided by the TEBS irrelevant. We are not immune to aging, degeneration of health or physical harm yet we are capable of extending our lifespan near indefinitely through the use of brain scan and download into clones. This is something the vast majority of humanity isn’t capable of let alone can afford. We capsuleers, for the most part, are in fact immortal – just not invulnerable.

2.) I did not mean to imply that humanity has plateaued and that we capsuleers are the end all to be all of human evolution, just that as it is now we are functionally at the peak of current human development. The baseline requirements to even be a candidate for the capsuleer program I believe is proof of this, not to mention having the right makeup to even accept the implants. I feel confident we can agree that the average capsuleer and the average baseline human are incomparable.

3.) I do not disagree or object to this point – variations between the time of ‘death’ and ‘rebirth’ are to be expected especially considering the vast distances the data potentially has to travel, which is remarkable in itself. The stream of consciousness however doesn’t break regardless of the time between the upload. For the majority of capsuleers this happens in the blink of an eye or extended sneeze.

4.) Respectfully, the purpose of this publication is meant to refute that. I acknowledge that you are not inclined to believe so.

[Response to Section II Critique]

5.) Like all theories and disciplines there are detractors and skeptics. This is essential to furthering our understanding of the universe. That said, I do not believe the theory of Genetic Memory to be ‘woo’ – though I am inclined to agree that they are not ‘memories’ in the sense we are accustomed to – nor is it what the research implies.

6.) The purpose of Section II was to simply lay the ground work for what genetic memory is. While the intent of this publication was not to necessarily make an argument for genetic memory, the study “Absolute Pitch, Speech, and Tonal Language: Some Experiments and a Proposed Framework” by Dr. Dianna Deutch, Trevor Henthorn and Mark Dolson provides additional sampling which “ […] describe two experiments in which native speakers of tone languages— Nappanii and similiar Caldari derivatives—were found to display a remarkably precise and stable form of absolute pitch in enunciating words. We further describe a third experiment in which native Amaarian speakers displayed less stability on an analogous task. Based on these findings, and considering the related literatures on critical periods in speech development, and the neurological underpinnings of lexical tone, we propose a framework for the genesis of absolute pitch […]” - Deutsch, Diana; Henthorn, Trevor (YC106). “Absolute Pitch, Speech, and Tone Language: Some Experiments and a Proposed Framework”. Music Perception. 21 (3): 339–356. doi:10.1525/mp.2004.21.3.339

I should have perhaps used this study as my main source as opposed to the other, as this one points out that differences the Caldari people as a whole exibit as penchant for perfect pitch compared to the other races of New Eden. I will include this in an addendum.

7.) I currently lack data on exactly how long Fedos have been in space, so I can’t properly retort to your point here at the moment. I would be thankful if you would point me in the right direction. With regard to the results being what you would expect – I’m not aligned. The study found “[.…] that while many mutation-induced phenotypic changes were necessary when the animals first adapted to the environment of space ships and stations, plastic changes largely transformed the transcriptomes to the preferred state when space faring Fedos were brought back to their ancestral environment.” – Herdon University. “Past is prologue: Genetic ‘memory’ of ancestral environments helps organisms readapt.” ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 22 May YC 122.

8.) I believe I’ve touched enough on the previous studies to have made my point and not have to defend each studies findings. This study regarding rabbits on Caldari Prime and their recognition of Kenko musk is reproducible in a lab environment where the younglings have never been introduced to the scent before in which study indicates the reasoning being genetic memory. Prof. Marcus Pembrey of the Center for Advanced Studies had this to say regarding the findings

"It is high time public health researchers took human transgenerational responses seriously.” And that the research done was “highly relevant to phobias, anxiety and post-traumatic stress disorders.” – Interview from The Scope article (‘Memories’ pass between generations - Scope News)

[Response to Section III Critique]

9.) I’ll concede in part to your point about cloning not initially being based off our own DNA, however as long as your not springing for the cheapest cloning services possible that is not the end case. To quotes the largest purveyor of cloning services, Cromeaux Inc.:

“The biomass is used to construct a functioning body. This body is complete in every sense, with fully functioning organs and peripheral neural system. Instead of a brain there is only a primitive cluster of ganglia which is capable of maintaining heart rate, blood pressure and respiration. Core body temperature is dependent on the environment, and so has to be controlled very carefully in order not to damage the cells. The immune system of the donor is crippled and the thymus is removed and replaced with implanted cells from the customer. The clone body will thus not reject any implant – this makes it possible to seed the body with stem cells from the customer. The clone’s body cells divide very slowly, allowing the new cells to take over in time." - Statement from Cromeaux Inc. on Clone Quality

The only way your clone doesn’t become ‘you’ is if your burning through clones faster than they can cultivate or your purchasing bargain been clones – to which I would then probably concede your point in full.

10.) As I stated in the publication, I believe it’s is essentially the compounded experiences over time. Even if it is just a fragment of experience that is captured and replicated over and over again there remains the possibility that the effects will cultivate in a new iteration down the line. This is where I believe we can observe the psychological decay and evolution of previously unacquainted ticks.

11.) Yes, it could be just memory, but I disagree that it precludes the possibility of it being genetic memory as well, or even a combination of both. Again, your point about us not being ‘us’ is only circumstantially true and is the exception not the rule. These experiences, whether you want to call them fragments of life or death are what I posit ultimately compound to the point that your DNA is irrevocably changed over time, only rather than experiencing the side affects generations down the line we experience them ourselves through living through those would-have-been offspring via repetitive cloning.

[Response to Section II Critique]

(Thank you for pointing out that formatting mistake, I will adjust as well as submit edits and republication with addendums brought out during this exchange, which I owe much credit to you for bringing out.)

12.) I have no retort, I think we can align easily on this point without it ultimately detracting from the purpose of the publication.

13.) Please see my response for your rebuttal point 11, 10, and 9.

14.) Please see my response for your rebuttal point 8.

15.) I think is another issue of semantics, though I believe I understand your opposition to the use of the word. The data uncovered from each study however I believe should be considered for what it shows as opposed to being dejected based simply because the term used to describe those findings is unpleasant to the reader.

Thank you again for submitting your critique. I hope that my response proves to be conducive to further discussion.

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You misunderstand me. TEBS is not a continuation of your life. It kills you. And then you are replaced by someone just like you. This is, as far as the rest of the cluster is concerned, still ‘you’, but you, the actual person… die. Consciousness is not continued. Consciousness is an emergent process of the brain. When the brain stops functioning, conciousnes ends. The new brain begins a new consciousness that has as its starting state an image of the predecessor, but like a recording of a musical performance… the recording is not the original performance.

Not at all. While your case might have had merit under the original, stringent guidelines of the capsuleer programs, those restrictions were loosened significantly with the adoption of the national Alpha Clone programs. And honestly, given the examples of quality control I’ve seen among graduates of those programs… the average capsuleer is more comparable to the average fedo: they take in non-stop industrial waste and nonsense, and extrude hot air, and that’s about it. :wink:

Again, consciousness is an emergent property of the meat’s electrochemical process. It absolutely stops, and a new process begins.

Yes, I understand that. Your reasoning is consistently flawed.

There is no empirical evidence whatsoever for genetic memory, only for selected capabilities and retention of those with no selective pressure against them. This is no more ‘genetic memory’ than your stubborn insistence on having two arms is.

Again, with no selective pressures to lose these capabilities, retention of them is only to be expected. Evolution is only ever a ‘good enough’ process.

And it’s idiocy. If a bacteria strain evolves so that increased salinity (a chemical stimulus) results in a thickening of the structure of the cell membrane (a chemical response), that would effectively be the same thing. There is no ‘genetic memory’ involved. Only a change in how the organism’s automatic biochemistry reacts to chemical stimuli. Once again: this is no different from your stubborn insistence on having two arms.

Yes, it is. Even the statement from Cromeaux demonstrates that. The idea that you’re being seeded with stem cells from your original genome is marketing nonsense. The only way to arrange that is if they’d been culturing tens of kilograms of stem cells and transporting them instantly all over the cluster.

I’ll give you a couple of examples, and I’ll use the lazy shorthand of typical capsuleer frameworks as an example:

I undock, and warp to my FC. Two hundred Muninns lock up my Loki before I can get up to speed and added to logi watchlists, and I explode. Fast tackle and dictors make sure the pod blows up. The next me wakes up, jumps in a ship, and gets right back out there… only to be dead inside of 2 minutes (has happened). Repeat, at least 4-5 times. Again, has happened.

And… I’m supposed to be getting taken over by my own stem cells in that time?

Second example: I dock, install a jump clone. Swap clones. Undock. Elapsed time: under 1 minute.

So…‘immune system of the donor’… there is no donor. It’s a bunch of generic biomass. It’s been reprocessed half a dozen times over, and frankly, I don’t have time for them to be going through this slow-ass process of crippling the immune system and then performing surgery on the clone.

Marketing copy is wonderful crap. It’s also lies. The operational systems of a medbay don’t work the way Cromeaux likes to tell people they work. If they did, they’d take a lot longer than they do to cycle through 'you’s.

The compounded experiences of things that aren’t recorded in the scan? How do the nothings compound? 000=???

The memories in question are not stored in your genes. They are in your brainstate. And…

IF you were truly being constantly seeded by stem cells containing your original genome, this would be impossible, because you’d keep getting reset to the original genome. Your DNA would not be changed over time. Just the opposite: it would be constantly being forced back to the initial ‘factory settings’.

And yet, you continue to insist on the ‘immortality’ nonsense not being nonsense.

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Arrendis puts a lot of weight on this analogy and has for years. It’s an engineer-like, technical kind of way to define “death” that draws meaning from mechanism rather than ultimate effect. As deaths go it lacks impact, but I guess it’s … consistent, at least?

Maybe because I’ve experienced a somewhat sharper discontinuity that left my infomorph in a damaged state, I personally draw that line at a different point: timelines getting snipped, experiential branches that won’t grow any further, leaving the individual to continue from a prior point in their timeline, resorting to a stored backup mind. That’s profound for the individual whose timeline got snipped: they’re gone. Whoever they were, whatever they had learned since that last backup got installed, just … disappears.

That’s important, at least for that individual. I don’t really notice the discontinuities otherwise, so it doesn’t bother me much even if in some way I do technically die.

(I will be hugely surprised if I someday arrive in the spirit world to find a whole district dedicated to housing the spirits of all my dead clones, horrifying/hilarious as that would be. Timeline snips-- alternate selves-- would make a little more sense, though really I don’t expect that, or anything, either.)

Otherwise I basically agree with Arrendis. All you really need for an explanation of “capsuleer dementia” is a look at history: how unaccountable people with power, especially military power, tend to behave-- not in theory, but in practice.

(In theory you get codes of honor and such things that dignify and seek to justify the resulting imposed hierarchy. The practice is often a bit different.)

I don’t need to have my ancestors intruding on my neurons for that to be a problem.

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I will be even more surprised if someday you arrive in the spirit world… or anyone else, for that matter.

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I agree: it’s way more likely that our emergent process winks out, the illusion of existing as a separate being ends, and we disappear back into the weave of everything. The only immortality we get is the threads of continuing cause and effect spreading out from our little patch of time.

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I’ll respond back as best I can. Apologies in advance as I’m not where I can directly quote each point and am having to use a simple numbered response.

1.) Fair enough, at the time of my rebuttal to your point I was certainly mistaken about your intention – However I think this is more of a philosophical debate than anything. If our brains are what makes us ‘us’ then this isn’t even worth discussing. Our physical bodies might cease to exist, but our brain state is secured and reawakened in a new body. From a secular standpoint you are still you because your brain makeup has simply been transferred. Genetically, we eventually do become exact copies of our former selves, which I’ll address further down in the reply.

2.) Even if we don’t align, at least you got a laugh out of this Fedo.

I can’t help but disagree that the existence of alpha clones discredits my original claim as even in an alpha state capsuleers are capable doing what baseline humans simply are not. They certainly don’t reach the full potential of the Omega clones but it doesn’t change that they are objectively uniquely suited to do something only a fraction of a percent of people can.

3.) Sure, but the average capsuleer does not notice this as pointed out in official CONCORD data and capsuleer testimony. Does it end? Yes. Does it matter? Not really. Or maybe it does on a subconcious level.

4.) My reasoning could be flawed – I would be remise to hold the position that my idea is infallible and certainly wouldn’t open it to public consumption and critique if I thought so – however you’ve done little to disprove the studies I’ve provided other than dismiss them as ‘woo’.

5.) 6.) 7.) I would encourage you to reach out to the individual research teams for further rebuttal, as I honestly am not sure how to continue without either repeating myself or quoting data you’re just going to dismiss.

8.) I’m working with the data provided and would be happy to examine further information that disproves what Cromeaux has released to the public. Your examples are a bit strange to me as they seem to be assuming that we’re working with just a few clones at a time – and this could be the case I suppose depending on how you manage your own affairs. One could be flash growing clones (which sounds like what you do) at a much lower quality rate in some kind of bio stew, and if that is what you are in fact doing then we’re not even discussing the same thing. In such cases my thesis and supporting research is absolutely irrelevant.

At this moment I’ve got at least a hundred clones gestating in various facilities undergoing the exact process outlined by Cromeaux. Your assumption that one would be culturing tens of kilograms of stem cells and transporting them is exactly what happens, not instantly sure, but that is what is happening and there is nothing I’ve seen presented that would make me think that I will not be getting exactly what I’m paying my Cloners for. I can’t fathom why you think this is such a ridiculous idea when it’s widely publicized and scrutinized by the Federal Government – of course who you chose to administer your clone contract will differ.

So yes, there is a donor. It’s not up for debate unless you chose to go a different route. In those cases you will eventually get a clone that it a genetic replica of your original self unless your burning through clones faster than the cells can replicate and replace. Which again is possible depending on how many you keep and the rate in which your being podded or jumping around. Again, if you’ve got additional studies or information that I can view outside our exchange I would be happy to view them. Could you imagine the scandal?

9.) As I’ve stated in my publication and in my previous response, I believe that snippets are being recorded through our brains realization that we are going to die and in most cases now that we have died many times over. Not necessarily the death itself.

10.) It’s not IF - it’s anyone using any of the major Empires top Cloning Firms – and as the research I’ve cited implies its not impossible because your brain would be capturing those bits of data that could eventually alter your DNA as you persist through multiple clones. I’m not saying that this will happen without a doubt to everyone. There are naturally mitigating circumstances as we’ve discussed. I am saying there is evidence that shows that it is possible and that I believe that it contributes to the overall instability of the capsuleers mental state.

11.) Then we dont, which I am OK with.

Thank you again for taking the time to enter into discussion with me on this topic. I’m finding it very enjoyable and informative.

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I appreciate your input, however I must disagree with this in paticular:

“All you really need for an explanation of “capsuleer dementia” is a look at history: how unaccountable people with power, especially military power, tend to behave-- not in theory, but in practice.”

There exists all sorts of reasons for individual mental health to devolve and I believe we do ourselves and our fellows a diservice by over simplifying it to an idiom akin to ‘Absolute power corrupts absolutely’. What I suggest in my research might not be the answer, and ultimately it may be just ‘woo’ as Capsuleer Arrendis so strongly believes, but I dont think that we should limit ourselves to pushing the bounds of what we currently understand.

Thank you again for your response.

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Genetic Memory and Instincts should be separated before calculations as to its effects on immortality.
Also: Pod pilots do not have automated transference installed into their fight or flight cranial matrices; The pod has to be destroyed and with no other options CONCORD picks up their distressed wireless signal and beams it to the Home Station of the pilots previously set designs.
-o

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No, from a secular standpoint, the new ‘you’ is a reproduction, like copying a recording. In fact, it is copying a recording. The original performance ended before you graduated flight school.

The reason I use a musical performance as my preferred analogy is because it, too, only exists over time. Take any exact moment of your brain-state. That’s not you. It’s a snapshot of you, like a photograph. ‘You’ only exist in the 80-100ms smears of ‘now’ that your brain generates through interactions over time. Your ears get data to your brain faster than your eyes, but the information gets to your eyes faster… and yet, you perceive things as happening simultaneously… because your brain is creating the illusion, after the fact, and that is your conscious mind.

But the issue was that capsuleers are ‘required’ to be these superhuman paragons just to get into the program… which was only ever true because the programs themselves had such a limited pool of slots that they used arbitrarily excessive criteria to thin out the pool of potential applicants. All that’s required is capsule compatibility. The rest is noise.

The average capsuleer doesn’t notice much, let me tell you. Myopic, self-absorbed, generally stupid individuals who only think with their reptile brains, always looking for the next blood-soaked dopamine hit. Among the things the ‘average capsuleer’ didn’t notice: The entire Defense of the Throne Worlds campaign by the Imperial Navy. The assassination of the Amarr Empress. The fact that she’d freed billions of slaves ten years earlier. The Shakorite bloodbath ahead of the Republic’s reorganization. The fact that the Thukker are, in fact, part of the Republic now…

Whether or not capsuleers notice something is utterly meaningless.

I haven’t dismissed the studies as ‘woo’. I’ve said ‘genetic memory’ is woo. The studies, on the other hand, fundamentally misrepresent what they’re talking about by portraying it as some kind of distinct ‘genetic memory’. It’s a genetic retention of traits, nothing more, nothing less, just like everything else in your genome. And those changes and retentions only matter in terms of large-scale populations over multiple generations of genetic mixing. Cloning something a hundred times and saying ‘look! The genes are the same!’ is… well… dumb. Of course they are. It’s like copying a photograph a hundred times and being amazed that the scene hasn’t changed.

If you have more than one clone active at a time, CONCORD would like to talk to you about terminating your pilot’s license.

As for ‘flash growing clones’… when’s the last time you installed a jump clone and it took more than 5 seconds? It’s not a matter of quality, it’s simply a matter of ‘that’s how the technology works’.

Considering that’s how long it takes to create any jump clone or medical clone… that’s all the cases there are.

I would love to see the actual data on that.

It is not. The Federation has no jurisdiction over capsuleer cloning. That’s CONCORD, and they don’t give a damn what corporations promise you. It sounds to me like you’re getting pretty badly fleeced.

Here, this is real simple: Go to any citadel with a clone bay that you can use. Install a jump clone. Jump into is ASAP.

Here’s your headline:

CAPSULEER GETS SCAMMED; WATER—STILL WET

Your brain’s ‘realization’ is an 80-100ms smear, reconstructed after the fact and presented to your conscious mind as the memory of the moment you think you were aware of while it happened. Compare that to the nanoseconds of the TEBS, and ask yourself ‘did I have time to notice I was dead?’

The answer, of course, is ‘you aren’t… but your predecessor definitely didn’t have the time.’

It’s not. You’ve bought into marketing lies. Sorry.

It can’t. It doesn’t have the time, and any alterations as a result of the sudden introduction of those trauma responses when the new brain starts up (and remember: your neurons don’t regrow, so the stem cells don’t do squat for your brain) would a)be inflicted on the generic biomass, and b)get erased as these imaginary stem cells replace that biomass.

Sure, no problem!

Just ‘Arrendis’, please. Even when I actually had official titles, I found them abhorrent.

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If you have more than one clone active at a time, CONCORD would like to talk to you about terminating your pilot’s license.

As for ‘flash growing clones’… when’s the last time you installed a jump clone and it took more than 5 seconds? It’s not a matter of quality, it’s simply a matter of ‘that’s how the technology works’.

I never meant that I had more than one active clone at a time, but that I’ve pre-commissioned the gestation of enough clones that I should never have to think about resulting to an inferior or cheaper product because I ran out. This is exactly as advertised by most cloning facilities - or at least in the State they are and at least one in the Federation. I can’t speak with absolute certainty for what happens out in Null Sec or the other Empires.

I don’t make frequent use of Jump Clones, but when I do I commission them in advance. You should really try it out sometime, it would be interesting to see if you notice any difference from what your used to.

Considering that’s how long it takes to create any jump clone or medical clone… that’s all the cases there are.

This is simply not true as previously demonstrated. Unless of course there is some grander conspiracy afoot.

I would love to see the actual data on that.

Respectfully, you’ve been shown more than once. Seriously, I would be launching a complaint with whoever you contract your cloning services out to.

It is not. The Federation has no jurisdiction over capsuleer cloning. That’s CONCORD, and they don’t give a damn what corporations promise you. It sounds to me like you’re getting pretty badly fleeced.

It is to an extent in the Federation, unless Cromeaux is lying about those Federal auditors, which I don’t know why they would. None of this rules out that I’m being fleeced. I contract with a Caldari outfit mostly and thats essentially in our blood so I would expect I’m being taken advantage somewhere in my contract.

Here, this is real simple: Go to any citadel with a clone bay that you can use. Install a jump clone. Jump into is ASAP.

Which wouldn’t be an issue if I wanted to purchase a generic clone. Thats a service that is available after all in addition to long term cultivation.

Here’s your headline:

CAPSULEER GETS SCAMMED; WATER—STILL WET

I can at least say I’ve never bought a ‘mining permit’ hah!

It’s not. You’ve bought into marketing lies. Sorry.

Then it is quite the brazen scam. Especially given how up front they are about your purchasing plans.

Just ‘Arrendis’, please. Even when I actually had official titles, I found them abhorrent.

Of course, @Arrendis. Thank you once again.

I hope you don’t take offence for not addressing your other comments. I feel like I’ve nothing more to add that wouldn’t be a repeat of what I’ve already said which I don’t believe will push the discussion further.

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So, respectfully, sir, I don’t see it precisely as a mental health devolution, more … just … “being human”?

There’s a pattern where people reserve their empathy for those others whose opinions they need to be careful about-- whose opinions concretely “matter” to them in some predictable, meaningful way. It’s why people of high status tend to look down a lot on those “beneath” them: if it’s safe to ignore someone’s opinion, people will tend to do exactly that.

There are exceptions of course but unfortunately it’s not so much a matter of healthy versus unhealthy; more … “how people are supposed to work” versus “how people work.”

Add in the “ship-scale” perspective and the fact that despite the death toll we seldom see an actual corpse and it’s pretty easy to shrug off how many people we kill, directly or indirectly. Even those happening right under our noses almost might as well be reported statistics from a war far away.

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I have several I maintain, including at a number of megacorporate facilities and CN stations in the State. There’s no difference whatsoever.

Advertisers/Marketers lie. It’s their job.

A ‘grand conspiracy’ is required for you to buy into marketing lies?

I think you overestimate your discernment.

No, I’ve been shown advertising copy.

Show me the current images of your in-process, not-yet-ready clones, including locations so it can be independently verified. I mean, that’s not a difficult ask if they’re actually there. You have seen them, right?

It’s what they do. It’s their job to separate you from your money.

There are far more brazen ones taking people in every day in Jita.

Not at all.

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I dont think photographic evidence would convience you of much. Perhapse I can reach out to my Contract Agent at Lai Dai to see if we could arrange a tour, though i wouldn’t hold my breath.

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It’s the ‘independently verifiable’ bit that’s really critical.