Give Exeq, Scythe Oneiros and Scimitars a bonus to Remote Sensor Boosters

Council Of Stellar Management Assembly Hall
1

This will make them formidable against Jamming and Dampening in null sec fleet fights. The Augs, Osprey, Guards and Basi are all virtually immune to neuting (which should be their strength), so making the Gall and Min logi cruiser hulls (both tier 1 and tier 2) strong against Damps/Jams should be their strength,

Additionally, give all Logi (from tier one frigates to tier 2 for all races) remote tracking computer bonuses (which is very niche in PvP). This isn’t something that should be limited to Oneiros and Scimi, and would lead to more usage of tier one logi frigates in PvE.

2

The hulls you mention already have a big advantage against jams and damps as they are able to repair independently, even when others in the logi wing are damped or jammed, unlike the cap-chain dependent logi ships like Caldari and Amarr cruisers that will suffer and break the chain, run out of capacitor and die.

As the Gallente and Minmatar logi cruisers are already the choice of logi against damps and jams, I don’t see why jam and damp effectiveness against these ships should be nerfed even further.

3

They have advantage against Jams and Damps, yes, but they’re aren’t foolproof, whereas the Caldari and Amarr hulls are not just strong against neuts, but foolproof against neuts.

So I say make it fair, and let Gallente and Minmatar not just be strong against Damps and Jams, but also foolproof. Eye for an eye.

4

I don’t think it’s good or useful if ships that are already strong in a certain scenario are buffed further to become ‘foolproof’ in that same scenario.

‘Foolproof’ should not be a goal of EVE balancing as it introduces hard counters that aren’t fun or interesting to play against.

5

on this note we should nerf cap transfers

6

No need.

Cap transmitters are rarely strong except in specialised setups with certain hulls or rigs which encourage extra cooperation and care (capchains), which in my experience as logi pilot are quite easily broken.

I don’t see why these modules needs a change.

7

It’s takes -100GJ to break Guardian/Basi Chain, and even then that takes a full minute (slightly more than 60 seconds). And that’s just to bust one Guardian in the chain.

EWAR range tends to be 80+km. Neut Range, sans Armageddons, tend to be sub 30km. To neut more than one guardian/basi with a single hull you need to steer straight into heart of the enemy fleet with a Bhaalgorn.

With the current strength of Maxed out Info Links + Mindlink, the single Sebo of a Guardian is sufficient to ward off targeting range damps. Yes, the Guardian/Basi is most vulnerable to Jams, but that’s the tradeoff for general neut immunity.

The only away anyone is ever piloting into a Guardian/Basi chain with neuts is if they’re already winning the field.

For this reason, I don’t think it unreasonable to give the Gall and Min logi cruisers (tier 1 and 2) a 5% bonus to remote sensor booster per level. This still requires them to chain the remote sebos (that is, the bonus doesn’t apply to regular sebos), and would often be at the expense of a cap battery or cap booster (since they only have four mid slots).

If they fit prop + battery(or booster) + sebo + remote sebo, then they only have one bonused Sebo, while fitting prop+sebo+2remote sebo makes them very vulnerable to neuts. Overall this would result in more usage of the hulls in null sec fights, while not changing anything in regards to solo logi in wormholes and low sec.

And I still think every logi boat from tier 1 frig to tier 2 should get a remote tracking computer bonus. This is rarely used in PvP even on the Tier 2 Gall and Min hulls, and it would make tier 1 logi frigates used more in PvE (usually the Oni/Scimi is brought just for the tracking comp bonus fitting more weaponry than repps, where a single tier 1 Navitas with a single small armor rep would be just fine).

8

Cap chains are already easily broken.

A single web.
Jams.
Damps.
Two void bombs,
or killing one or two of the chain ships seriously messes up their logi power.

Yes, if you’re bringing neuts to combat a fleet using a cap chain, you better use those neuts on a different ship than the logi. For example you can neut a dps ship to turn off their hardeners and reduce the EHP/s they get from their logi, or neut the enemy FC to turn off their MWD and possibly slow down their entire fleet.

I see no reason to change anything about logi or about neuts, the current situation seems balanced to me. Cap chains have advantages, but also many weaknesses. Just not neutralizers.

Non-cap chain logi have one small advantage, which is that they don’t rely on cap chain as much and a non-cap chain logi wing therefore is less impacted by damps, ecm, webs but a bit more by neuts.

Seems like a fair tradeoff.

9

Jams, yes. But everything else seems to be a fantasy.

A single defender launcher from a dragoon or confessor or even dictor (which are in every null sec fleet) will stop two bombs.

Cap transfers have ranges above 70km. I do not see how webs interferes with that. And logi pilots and anchored (usually to a monitor), so Damps isn’t going to do it either assuming they have Info Links.

Jams are the only effective means, which is fine, because the Guardian/Basi needs to have at least one reliable weakness.

And I never asked for neuts to be changed, until you said that having blanket immunity to neuts was fine for Guardians and Basilisks (which you have affirmed again with the statement "Yes, if you’re bringing neuts to combat a fleet using a cap chain, you better use those neuts on a different ship than the logi. ").

I personally don’t think there’s anything wrong with general immunity to neuts for the Guardian/Basi, which is why I don’t think there’s anything wrong with general immunity to damps and Jams for the Oneiros/Scimi. As it stands, the Guardian will always be the fleet choice, because Dampening Ships and Jaming ships can also be…damped, but that requires additional bodies (pilots) to counter damp them, whereas Guardians/Scimi don’t require extra pilots to support them against neuts.

Hence why the Guardian/Basi are the kings of null sec.

5% per level on remote sebos will make the Oner/Scimi viable choices in blobfests (btw, I enjoy blobfests). I don’t know about you, but as a logi pilot, I hate being jammed all the time, don’t you? I’d like to fly an Oneir or Scimi with better speed so the enemy actually has to use some brains cells to find a way to neut me.

I’d even be happy with huge reduction on Repping Range for this bonus (that way the Oneiros has to rep closer to enemy neuts).

10

Instead of remote sebos, why not try sebos on your logi fit if you dislike being jammed?

The option already exists. I don’t see it used very often, unless against jamming setups.

It’s good that such counterplay of logi against jamming already exists, no need to buff it further.

11

Because Remote Sebos are stronger than Sebo balanced by the risk of a cascade (if the chain is broken, each unbroken member is now more vulnerable to also being broken). The reason you don’t see remote sebo chains (1 up and 1 down) is because of the cascade threat.

A 5%+ bonus per level (total 25%) would help. There’s no also no other ship that has Remote Sebo Bonuses. Sebos also don’t reverse Damps (they only partially undo the effect with Max Info Links). A bonused Remote Sebo could actually reverse the effect entirely.

However, we could make it a Linear Effect. Remote Sensor Bonus: Completely Negates One Dampening Effect on targeted ship (does not negate ECM). However, when this module negates a dampening effect, it no longer applies any additional bonuses.

Have you ever had a tier one celestis hit you with two damps (one heated?), it’s nasty bro. If you don’t have Infolinks from Command Ship with mindlink, you’re done (I’ll straight up afk if no does anything about within 60 seconds). My last three stratops had either a Maulus, Keres, Celestis or Arazu/Lachesis with two damps on me. There’s no counterplay (on an individual level for the logi). At least jams eventually break (and are chance based).

If I’m in a Guardian/Basi, that’s fine, that’s the expected weakness of my hull (a necessary one, since they can’t be neuted). I should also add that one either has to sacrifice tank or repping power in an Onerious/Sci (either downgrade buffer or repper size) to fit a Sebo+2 Remote Sebos.

In other words, you have less repping power, but highly reliable when you fit a Sebo + 2 Remote Sebos with the intended change to hull. You’re not fitting more than two large armor reps without a large thukker cap battery.

12

So one EWAR ship can temporarily make one or two logi ships less effective by cutting their range to the point that it can only repair other anchored ships, or to the point that it takes longer to react on repair broadcasts.

As someone who often used to fly logi: yes, that sounds annoying.
As someone who also often liked using damp ships: yes, that sounds like the purpose of damps.

Sounds like fair and balanced gameplay to me.

13

This is what a good Dampening pilot does (always using a four damp setup).

Damps you to zero with two.

Waits 5-10 seconds while targeting another logi.

Applies other two damps with scan res script on you then lifts the targeting range damps on you.

Put the targeting range damps on other logi. Waits 5-10 seconds, puts scan res on him, then put targeting range back on you.

He continues this rotation cycle, forcing you to keep the targeting range script loaded in your sebo (making the effect of the scan damp 3x worse). Without an ECCM script, that one Jammer on you now has 5x increased chance to jam you as well.

Perhaps you’ve never fought against a fleet with a good EWAR wing of 10 dampening hulls and 5 Jamming hulls? It’s brutal man, especially if they’re in voice or a separate text channel coordinating. They can shut down 30 logi no problem. It seems they rotate through the logi with the jammers putting one damp on each logi (with no rotation). And they do this at max range (just within falloff), so it’s not like someone can go over and kill them.

Of course, you can counter damp from unbonused ships (something we’ve been doing lately), but with four damps on the bonused ships, they’ll just put one bonused damp on the unbonused ship damping them, and then apply heat to the scan res damp in the rotation over the logi to make up for the missing scan res damp on the logi.

14

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