Grumble Grumble, P2W, Capital Skill Books, Grumble Grumble

Communications Center General Discussion
107

Okay, I do believe that their is a distinction between a P2W monetization method and a P2W game (which I personally define as a game in which outcomes are determined primarily by the amount of money a player pays).

The best way I can describe is like this. My bother works out, doesn’t drink, doesn’t smoke, and generally eats quite healthy. Overall, I would say he lives a healthy lifestyle. He does, however, partake in ice cream regularly. Eating that much sugar and empty calories can hardly be considered a healthy choice, but everything else he does seems to make up for that. So, even though he does something that is unhealthy, he is still a healthy person.

Does this make sense? Buying skillbooks is a P2W monetization method. Full stop. You can say that it’s not a particularly bad P2W mechanic, or that it’s not anti-consumer. You can do the “what aboutism” argument and bring up plex. You can point out that player skill is still the biggest determining factor in outcomes. But that doesn’t change the fact that this is still a P2W monetization method.

Eve is not P2W, however, they are introducing more and more P2W monetization methods. Thus, I’m trying to push back against that because I don’t want to see these P2W monetization methods turn Eve into a P2W game.

Hopefully, that makes sense.

108

I’m not. Please do not make straw man arguments, citing the ISK value of the assets in question as indisputable proof that possessing them is an advantage over not possessing them does not mean that there is nothing else.

Nope. PLEX transfers in-game assets between players. This current offer spawns in-game assets out of nothing and gives them directly to the player.

Do you have an issue with players being able to buy PLEX?

I do. PLEX is only acceptable at all because the alternative, black market RMT, is far more destructive. If I could remove PLEX entirely without just handing the RMTing over to botters and account thieves I’d do it without hesitation.

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109

Wrong.
Buying skillbooks is just monetization. It’s not P2W. You’ve claimed it’s “pay to win” yet have conveniently left out what you’re actually “winning” at.

If CCP sold Premium Ammo that ignored Shields and dealt 1,000 dps to Hull, THEN I would agree that it is both (a) monetization, and (b) pay to win, because there is an OBJECTIVE advantage that players who buy this have over others (specifically in the realm if pvp combat).

So does buying the skillbooks from NPC seeded markets. Now you’re just trying to draw random distinctions that don’t matter to whether or not something is “pay to win”.

Then your definition of “pay to win” is hilariously wrong.

110

Utter nonsense. Spawning an in-game object via in-game means is not at all the same as spawning an in-game object by giving CCP your credit card.

Then your definition of “pay to win” is hilariously wrong.

Is having 500 million ISK worth of skill books not an advantage over not having those skill books?

111
  • CCP sells skillpoints.
  • CCP sells Plex.
  • CCP sells “damage booster” accelerators (currently only for newish characters)
  • CCP even sells a few ships (destroyers, etc.)

This bundle is nothing noteworthy. In fact, CCP has already broken pretty much every line-in-the-sand everybody is getting all agitated about.

112

I’ve seen from some things you’ve put up (and taken down) in the past that you are somewhat sensitive to this. There are few things I am 100% certain of, but I am 100% certain you played no role what-so-ever in my decision in that direction.

If that does not convince you, let me go on to say the personal loyalties I spoke of are not limited to those with whom I interact directly, or to people I agree with. I like people who try hard and mean well, which I think you do.

I have friends who play Eve, and there are good people like yourself who are playing Eve. Those are reasons to stay and so I would count you as such, even if you thought I was wrong.

What I have put forth here are reasons I have relevant-ish to the thread. I have other reasons, too. Being older and tired-er. The pandemic adding more stress to life. The hours of my availability changing so that they don’t line up with my aforementioned friends anymore. …and others I won’t bother to drone on about.

Hopefully, now you can rest easy in the same certainty I have that you did nothing to convince me to quit.

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113

I see the usual PA apologists got in quick and are posting often.

Mr Epeen :sunglasses:

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114

I see the usual PA attackers got in quick and are posting often.

Your point is ?

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116

I hope you did not discuss this topic for this amount of time and did not yet realize that when people talk about Pay2Win they don’t mean that in a literal sense, but in the sense that you gain an advantage in whatever form, skipping waiting time, skipping grind, access to better gear, ammo or consumables… because that would make you really look like an idiot

6 Likes
121

You need to educate your self, I’ve been playing mmorps since 1998, and what you people do if there is no cash shop is start rmt sites, and do all sorts of foul stuff. It is much better with a cash shop and cutting out the foul people who do rmt.

Haha says u calling people who can buy stuff in games stupid, while apparently you guys are so poor dropping 1000 into a game is just unthinkable to you so u call every one who does stupid. When the fact is if you think 1000 bucks into a game is alot you shouldn’t even be playing a game, you should be trying to work.

As for ruining the game far from it, ruining maybe slave labor I guess. You just want every one to have to mine for 17 months before they can do anything.

As for the nonsense about the cash shop makes people quit its quite the opposite. When you look at it in terms of cash and u lose 5 bucks for a 400m ship or something like that you don’t care about losing it and try new things. If from a new player with no anything, it would take them months to figure out how to make 400m, with just the in game skill wait times.

As I said they should just skip it all and just sell people everything you can get in game in the cash shop. So people stop trying to force people to work a job in eve slave mining for them, or what ever werid sick stuff you psycos do in wurm holes and null sec.

I’m not even sure why u whine about it, eve is just a endless grind where u lose stuff anyways. So all it does give people a way to regain it with out mindlessly grinding for who knows how long, it is a good thing.

There are countless people that won’t try anything new cause they are worried about losing things that took them years to get. We are talking people who mined for 1000 hours. There was that one guy who quit cause he mined so long then they changed the asteroid content lol.

I mean I never would of tried anything if it wasn’t for the cash shop. I’ve been here i dono like 3 weeks. I would still be waiting on skills. You guys also seem to think you can learn this game by staring at guides, while maybe its ture for a bit its like saying you can learn how to fly by staring at manuals. So with out the cash shop it takes literal years to try bigger ships and all the things. It would be equal to saying here read this manual on how to fly a plane for a year but we aren’t gonna let you actually fly. Then people don’t even share all the stuff in manuals, it comes with experience, and the only way to get that is to do it. If you are stuck mining while skills go up for a year you are getting no experience.

The most I made was in hauling, but I never would of been able to do that, the collateral for those contracts was like 6b. Then I tried worm holes data sites 3 which was entertaining, quite impossible to do alone but I enjoyed trying. Which I lost alot trying all that stuff, which made me have to buy more.

122

Yes, that sounds pretty stupid. 3 week old toon wanting everything. Impatience is costly.

I’ve played MMO’s from Asheron’s Call (1999) and never had any urge to pay ingame stuff with money. My EvE character is 6 years old and I never had 6b in my wallet yet, so i would not be able to take those hauling jobs either.

And i would argue that cash shops are more destructive to MMO’s than few guys buying illegal RMT stuff from third parties.

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123

Yes, and thats the way some of us like it.

When you are spending $1000 for a 3 month experience, Ill take my $30 for years of play instead, thanks.

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124

Licensing?

Well, even if PA had control over EVE, there’s no actual evidence of that.
There’s little reason to believe they’d even try, because they would just break the game.
I sincerely doubt that one can sell EVE ONLINE The Game to someone else who then takes charge and changes things.

I also doubt CCP isn’t going to get sold again eventually.
They will take EVE ONLINE with them when that happens … yet again …
… so I kind of believe that the rights to the IP are still within CCP’s hands.

They’d be ■■■■■■■ retarded to give those away … don’t you agree?

I’m pretty damn sure someone else but Hilmar would just run the game into the ground,
because he’d have no ■■■■■■■ clue what’d he’d be putting himself up against.

If the changes since the BlackOut are coming from PA …
… which I doubt but who cares …
… then please … more of those changes.

125

That’s not gaming for fun, that’s a drug habit.

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126

A few? You have no idea. Take ultima online where the rmt are still rampant, there are like 30 of them, and I know in their day when the game was popular, because they love to boast. Which ultima online doesn’t ban them. They were making 5 grand a month, and uo was never as popular as this game has been over the years. I’m sure the rmt pirates were racking in 10 plus grand a month some of them.

Is it you never had a urge or you never had 1000s of dollars just sitting around doing nothing? I mean yeah u aren’t gonna have a urge to spent money on a game, if you are debating between food, rent, a new computer or eve money. So calling people stupid cause they have way more money than you and support the games they want to play is just ridiculous.

127

Thousands… hehe.

I invest my money in something that has actual value (stocks, houses, etc…) not worthless space pixels. And I can enjoy my games just fine without instantly rushing to the end.

Hell, i´ve been playing Clash Royale for 3 years without using a single dime on it. And that game is one big frikkin loot box.

128

Yeah . . . stocks . . . real value? . . .

I guess so, if we are comparing them to ship skins or something.

You can’t own houses. You can only own the tax bill for houses.

129

So now that some bad precedents are set we should just accept continued P2W garbage?

Never had an urge. Spending $1000 on video game assets would be both spectacularly wasteful and immediately remove any reason to care about the game. And I say this as someone solidly in the top 10% of income in the US who will happily spend $500 on flying to lunch or a new set of gaming dice.

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131

I don’t think it is up to us to “accept” it.

132

Then again, kids need to stop using the phrase “pay to win” because it’s not “pay to win”. You kids are just whining about monetization practices in video games that have already long existed. If you’re going to talk about “advantage in whatever form”, even the Omega subscription would fall under “pay to win” but your definition, which is a useless way to categorize it.