Has the Muninn Meta Gone Too Far?

Hey all, surprisingly it doesn’t look like this has been talked about too much, so with that in mind I’d like to offer some criticisms of the HAC meta that was created in early 2018 with the introduction of Assault Damage Controls, and a rebalance of HACs in general.

Heavy Assault Cruisers and more specifically Muninns currently enjoy the position of go-to fleet ships whenever something important is on the line. This isn’t unusual for this game, as constant theorycrafting by committed players has always created an environment where one ship sees widespread use. The problem this time around is that the aforementioned changes have put HACs in a position that to my knowledge has never been enjoyed by another subcapital ship in Eve. I’m using Muninns as an example but I’d like to be clear that Eagles share many of these issues. The Muninn has become a true ‘do it all’ ship, able to engage nearly any class of ship comfortably.

Want to kite? Put on a 50mn and enjoy 100+ km ranges, 200k EHP, and a speed of nearly 2,500 m/s.

Want to brawl? You don’t even need to change the fit! Just load phased plasma or EMP and go nuts with 450 dps out to 50km, the same speed and agility, and the same 200k EHP.

Want to go against missile boats? Missile travel time means you have all the time in the world to hit your ADC and broadcast for reps!

Want to kill capitals? You can again use the same exact fit and shred capital fleets while fighters struggle to keep up and HAW Dreads struggle to track you.

Want to kill tiny ships that should be able to out-transversal you? Load Titanium Sabot and chuckle as that 4 km/s frigate realizes the error of their ways.

The Muninn is not a cheap ship at 300 - 350 mil fully fit, however I don’t believe that justifies its encroachment on the roles of several other classes of ships; especially when you take into account how easy it’s been to make ISK since their reincarnation. Take the era before this where feroxes filled the meta as an example. Feroxes were a powerful ship in their time, but they had their sets of disadvantages. They were slow as hell, they were damage locked to kinetic/thermal, and the tracking of railguns wasn’t great. That meant there was room in the meta for the likes of cruisers and battleships, and those ships indeed saw widespread use. You could use T1 battleships for more important fights and bashes, machariels for anti-capital combat, AB cruisers like the ANI for brawling, hurricanes for kiting, jackdaws and corms for sov warfare, combat interceptors to kill light ships.

In the current meta though, Muninns don’t have the disadvantages the ferox had, and can fill every single role described above. They’re so disgustingly powerful that to trade evenly with them you either need to bring munnins yourself, or tick/pipebomb/boson them. They can both track and outrange frigates and destroyers. They wipe cruisers and battlecruisers in every category. They don’t quite have the damage of battleships, but they have the tank of them and can outkite battleship guns, and even outrange many of them.

What HACs need is a role that they can fill, not to be the be all and end all of subcapital combat.

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A Muninn that can do 450 dps at 50km and have 200k EHP? You’re not seriously using OH and 15 second ADC numbers are you? Because that works really well in fleets.

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Muninns fleets are pretty on par with Ishtar fleets, and Eagle fleets and Ferox fleets are used far more often. Surprisingly, hurricanes appear to be the most used combat BC recently.

Sure, muninns are pretty powerful but at the same time the other HAC fleets have their purposes. Feroxes and canes aren’t really being enroached by HACs, they insure well and are easy to train into.

If anything dreks are the the ones being too commonplace, they’re used in fleets all the time now

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Not overheat, but I am using the ADC without boosts. Once logi has you locked you’re a helluva lot harder to kill even once the ADC has gone down. Yes I know pilot error’s a thing but people are becoming increasingly adept at hitting their ADC before too much damage lands.

I’m not sure how you got those numbers, but that’s not what I’m seeing. ZKillboard shows for kills in the last 7 days:

Muninn: 3,782
Eagle: 1,124
Ishtar: 695
Ferox: 1,271
Hurricane: 1,576

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Don’t you only see the red boxing once the first missile of a person hits you?? That’s why coordinating the missile volleys is so important in order to ensure that all the missiles of your fleet hit at the same time and volley the target off the field. Just like arties or Rail Eagles.

The redbox appears on aggression, which happens when the missile launcher is activated not when it hits.

Then they don’t do 450 dps at 50km.

Depends on your situation.

HACs are very affordable compared to recon cruisers atm…

435 if you want to get technical; just load phased plasma with the standard 2 gyro/2 tracking enhancer fit. Heating gives you 510.

Funny thing is, the reason the Muninn is so popular is because of its versatility compared to the other hulls. Like all Minmatar ships it can do anything that is needed in that role. Which is why the Ishtar and Eagle are not as popular. The Muninn is not locked to a set damage type, can put out REALLY high DPS almost instantly, and can tank either shield or armor… or even hull if you really want to get stupid. It isnt slow, and it is pretty common to replace.

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Also its base resists are very high and require few if aby resist mods making it easier to tank while having more slots open.

As for the OP, if your shooting at 100KM i can warp away.

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Muninn Meta Gone Too Far?

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Theyre only being used at 3 times the rate as the other HACs, so i dont see it as a problem. 3 times is hardly dominating the sphere of usage.

Drake?

I just wish they would make the zealot great again for something…

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omg people have figured out a ship fitting, this must be nerfed so that the next best ship fitting for the same role can be discovered and everyone can complain about the next meta.

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Some of these numbers really don’t add up. I have a 27km optimal and 31km falloff. That won’t be doing 450dps at 50km, even with the light drones. It has around 40k EHP. That’s on par with some of the other HAC’s, but it’s not as tanky as a Sacrilege or an Eagle. It also lacks the local rep bonus of the Deimos. I don’t see a lack of balance here.

I really hope it outperforms a ferox fleet, to be honest. A ferox takes fewer skills to fly and it costs less than 50m, as opposed to a Munin’s price tag which is over 200m. Do you really want tech I battlecruiser fleets to be inherently stronger than HAC fleets?

No idea where your head is at here. You realize that the reactivation for those ADCs is 2.5 minutes right?

Any cruiser can get under large guns because Large guns don’t track as well as medium guns. As far as out ranging battleships… honestly no idea.

Just as a side note, Muninn prices dropped slowly but steadily through most of 2018 and half of 2019, and have only started heading up again in the past 2 months or so.

If they were really all that and a bag of chips, don’t you think the price support would have been a little more robust?

I dont think so theres other doctrines being used but maybe in the near future? but right now I think its strong but not the only thing used.

“When I fly rock I always get owned by paper. Paper is silly overpowered, please nerf it!”

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