Have the rules changed for ganking?

New Citizens Q&A
22

Addendum: you seem so keen to talk about „irl money“ so let’s look at the gaming market:

  • GROUP A: Customers that only tolerate PvP in a separate arena firewalled from the rest of the PvE game. Size: Huge (millions+)
  • GROUP B: Customers that only tolerate PvP at high end zones and all other zones are PvP-free. Size: Tiny (thousands)
  • GROUP C: Customers that tolerate PvP on a sliding scale in zones. High end zones have total PvP, mid tier have some PvP, low tier have zero PvP. Size: Tiny (thousands)
  • GROUP D: Customers that desire PvP anywhere in all zones. There are no PvP-free zones. Size: Large (hundreds of thousands)

Why on earth would Eve Online move AWAY from group D money and try to capture group C money. There is no large gaming market to financially boost, and risking losing group D money in the process is foolish. Director of Finance is not incentivized to do this. In fact, Eve Online is one of the few games in group D so it makes no sense from Director of Product to abandon its flagship status of the genre.

Again this is why no one is buying your arguments around „irl money“.

(The numbers above and market cap are estimated looking at active Steam users for games that fit each category)

23

Yes, it’s a great PvP game, just as crazy as EVE and it’s not the only one in the PvP genre to be so.

But I don’t want to agree with you too overtly after you’ve rattled the cages here, they’ll say I’m your alt and you’re agreeing with yourself.
As soon as they disagree with you your entire person is dismissed as an alt or troll or both.
Don’t ask, that’s how EVE players are, I guess it’s part of that “uniqueness” that EVE is supposed to have according to them.
And they say they’re not toxic. LOL. Reeeaally makes me want to join one of the gangs they call “corporations”.

27

Now I understand why CCP ignores all you freaks on this forum.

28

Why do you keep calling names?

29

I’ve had the pleasure and displeasure to meet many online communities but EVE community and this forum take the cake.
Enjoy your little inconsequential forum that even the devs avoid like the plague.

30

My apologies, I should not have called you an alt.

The accusation adds nothing good to the forum, so I’ve removed my posts.

31

If you want to call people out for being displeasurable then simply do it. This sort of teasing, wink-and-a-nod, tip-toe insulting does nothing to elevate the community.

Better to have forceful and overt engagement than a bunch of people dressing up insults with civil language to talk past each other and exert their Reddit brain damage.

Even if Metriche and I vigorously disagree we’re pretty clearly engaging on ideas and quick to cut out personal attack crap. Would rather that than the alternative.

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32

CCP did analyse every aspect that related to multiple alpha ganking in high sec - fact - because they made the changes - not speculation. Pls don’t tell us you believe CCP didn’t do any research because that is what it sound’s like your saying.

Why do you think that CCP changed rules of ganking in high sec for Alpha accounts held mainly buy gankers with multiple atls ? I would like to know you views pls don’t avoid this question, I’m honestly interested why you believe CCP didn’t do any research before making such changes.

I agree, what part of that are you missing, I agree really and I also said

The reference I made and stand by this, and its not speculation its a fact pure fact, EVE needs players who spend rli money - that is a fact. Every Every Every ( 1 more time all together now Every) game that is made is intended to make a profit for there company.

It is ridicules to claim that a person ganking at high sec with multiple alpha atls to obtain isk for plex to fund a sub is in anyway using rli money, So CCP put a stop to it, fact and I find that funny In a strange way.

Sure as said there is an art in ganking, but why the hell do ppl have to BS about it - it is what it is, and if it’s someone’s full factor, good luck to them.

What I have said is that "Have the rules changed for ganking and I had a great discussion both respectful of each others views, however to your statement feels that this is going into another direction, but maybe something good can come from it.

I’m a little lost on group A/B/C/D lol feels like I’m going to get punished if I pick wrong answer, but I will try, as I believe I already have, so I pick “E” the option you missed.
“Why on earth would Eve online move AWAY from customers that desire PvP anywhere in all zones” I’t shouldn’t as I have said ganking is part of the game.

E, Customers that PAY for subs or PLEX that engage in a PvP environment letting them explore null/low/WH ect ect and to take part in historical like the Battle of B-R5RB, Customers that are new to Eve finding there way without being ganked buy alpha multiple atls players.

Now were going in another direction and yes this is just thoughts - Eve is massive, so much to do and can be fun, for a new player so much to take in.
There is a side to Eve PvE, yes it never use to be great, but it’s there like it or not, and as a player yourself with 12+ years, do you not want the game to grow, would you like to see more active players rather then multiple atls accounts?

PPL who spend there money, who went to work to earn that money, they are the ones that keep online games ticking - that is a fact - like or not - undisputed fact!

Name me 1 successful online game that is total free to play that is like Eve or even better / complex computer programming / has PvP / PvE / in game currency / player owned stations / ships / alliances / regular updates / events / compactions / amazing graphics / character creation cte.
NONE - why ? because they need financial funding and how do we get financial funding buy ppl spending REAL MONEY — fact.
It would be nice to buy a new car with plex or pay shopping with isk, so don’t confuse ingame credit with real life money.

I 'm happy were having this chat, I take nothing personal, if you feel the need to take a dig or 2 feel free, it’s a forum nuthing more.

But it would be nice to use such chats to understand as players (well I don’t play anymore) how we could help new players to settle, after all that what were talking about, getting new players who spend money to keep game growing.

(i’m not selling anything, and steam is not only way to play the game)

33

agreed — we can agree on some thing

34

I am claiming that changing red safety rules for alphas — yes this did change — says nothing about subscription monetization strategy (which is your claim). If anything it forces newbie gankers and veterans alike to pay for subscription (or via PLEX which is still IRL dollars in CCP wallet). All we have evidence for is that it was a gameplay change, not a monetization one. And there are endless debates about it on the merits of gameplay (not monetization). That’s a separate Herbert’s nest that Fifie mentioned.

But let’s suppose you are right. They did do the big „irl dollars“ equation as motivation for the change. It wasn’t gameplay it was secretly monetization. The natural question would then be: why did they only make it so alphas couldn’t go red safety, why didnt they do it for omegas too and get rid of Ganking? Surely that would have meant they decided „people who get ganked pay more IRL dollars than the gankers“.

But they didn’t do that. Thus, supposing, it was a monetization situation, making alphas force to go to omega to do red safety stuff in high sec means CCP values ganker IRL dollars (by forcing them to sub) and the IRL dollars of people who would quit if Ganking were eliminated more than the smaller amount of IRL dollars of people who don’t gank and would be remaining behind.

You see, my critique of your viewpoint is about the example you cite not being a concrete one (it’s a gameplay change not a monetization one). But even saying „you’re right“ you’re not convincing me because by your own logic, the very nature of the change itself shows CCP would value the IRL dollars of pro-ganker, pro-dangerous-universe people.

I answered it above but you asked kindly for me to be explicit. It was stated as being a gameplay and balance change by CCP, so that’s what I take it as in the patch notes. CCP says Alphas are supposed to be limited trial accounts and ganking gameplay shouldn’t be a part of the trial account. I don’t believe it was a decision made to be a monetization strategy at all. Hence I find your assumption to be a borderline hallucination without further evidence. And even when accepting it, I don’t follow your logic above. The fact that the change meant ganking is 1) still allowed to exist and 2) now subscription-only gameplay would logically be a signal that it is really really monetarily valuable! The opposite of your claim.

No doubt. But the population decline of the past 10 years of people that want to pirate in high sec and pay IRL dollars but can’t (because the gameplay no longer exists) also count. You can’t „conveniently“ forget about them either.

…and where does the plex come from? IRL money. The ganker could be buying it from a pro-dangerous-universe player or another all-omega ganker. It is ridiculous to try to pretend people paying ISK for subs don’t contribute to the continued incentive to sell plex in the first place (ganker or otherwise). No one sells PLEX for 0 ISK because no one wants to. They drive the price up. The destruction that accompanies Ganking also is the engine that makes sure prices are meaningful and that in game assets have value.

You said much more:

It has never been „full“ of gate camping gankers. High sec used to have much more diverse forms of piracy. CCP eliminated those playstyles and then wondered why players quit. There hasn’t been a renaissance of „peace loving PvE-only-players“ that said „wow look at all the less PvP happening I now like the game more“ and driven up sales. You can look at the PCU player count to verify this.

Instead, people simply move on to complain about whats left. Which for anyone who has lived the history — comes across as ridiculous. Here we used to have real players paying real subs when the universe was more dangerous. That’s guaranteed IRL money that could come back. The exodus of those players wasnt replaced with peace-loving grateful PvE-only folks. It was replaced with fewer players who complain more.

And it happens to be ganking and big-group-wardecs that’s left over, so that’s what’s complained about. Your original message fits right in with the above pattern of ridiculous complaints about a high sec „full of“ Ganking.

I do and I’ve outlined my views tirelessly on the forums how to do so. I don’t feel inclined to again but I’m pretty sure if I did you’d simply balk and say „I don’t believe more players would join if Io Koval were a dictator and got his way“. Because there’s 2 very different flavors of viewpoints as to how to grow the game: one „safe universe“ and one „return to more dangerous“.

35

I’ll have to read and see what points your making tomorrow, some of what your saying has merit and some is what I don’t agree with.

1 Like
36

Look, another one who asks for the deeper meaning of particular rules in the Newbro forum.
As always seasoned with valuable hints for CCP how to make much more money if they change the rules.

Just be aware you’re in the Newbro forum, not the rules & gameplay comission. Do you also ask elementary school teachers why you have to pay taxes?

37

lol we have really clashed heads on this subject, and has grown into another direction.
ok - interesting read.

Again ill point zKillboard / youtube / other gaming community’s from Ex-Eve players, as always I back my views with evidence, facts, common-sense, interactions with others who quit the game and why they did…

I’m trying to understand why an intelligent person and an experienced player like yourself cant face the facts.
CCP have done the research, have experts to analyse the data, have had management discussions regarding lack of paying customers, short number of players and how to improve the game.
How can you claim that a player with over 20atl ( 21st-hand zKillboard) will pay a full subscription for all accounts since the last few years has been playing for free? - no not at all .

I don’t believe that CCP came to the conclusion to impose red safety rules for Alpha account’s to arrive at your conclusion that

Any new player, no matter how good / old or young an experienced gamer, they will get ganked at jita - now the problem is 9/10 its by a player with 20 or more atls (already gave a name from zKillboard but there are 100s like that) - they have 2 choices to make - rage quit, evaluate time money effort to fun factor - or get better, statistic’s are showing you they quit.

CCP now know they cant get a person with 20Atls to pay full sub they have been playing for free for years, but they can improve the chance to maintain the prospects to entice a new player to subscribe

All top related games that involve financial transactions are only improved / gameplay changed for monetization, this is basic 1st level business common sense.

CCP could not publicly declare that they want to stop an activity due to profit or forcing 20atls to sub there would be an outcry from the free playing players and there 20 atls. This would be totally a bad PR statement, and again they have professional / experienced staff to advise on PR matters.

As said many times gankers are a part of eve online, ganking community’s, style of play ect BUT and its a big “but” that you cant accept or don’t understand what I’m saying,
Eve is massive and gankers have themselves to blame for over farming new players with free accounts and of course we both know they will not sub 20 atls with real money.

Eve dose not revolve around HIGH sec JITA ganking, ganking can be done at low/nul/wh/ ect ect , when I use to play amazing battles in null sec out of this world, and most that I knew would encourage new players to leave high sec, they would help them train them, same with w/h corps ect.

I’m not saying or have said it should stop - now that’s another debate on views lol we could bash head at.
so now to distinguish the difference between real life money and theoretical game real-world

We both know even a week a month depending on hours v game time v days that a player (lets call them potato) is not going to be that good in a few weeks, we both know that they may buy plex with real life money, they want the ship for relic or something, they might even have brought plex then sold for isk, its common, stupid but common.
Now lets say they tank a ship to best they can, we both know 20atls 1 shot from them and pop.

They jointhe majority as statistic’s shown and quit. CCP lost real life money transaction payment.

ganker has 20 atls some even more, they hit (potato) and get a nice 10b score - happy days - times this by 50b a day / lets say 4 days a week , they sell items in market for ISK, they use ISK to acquire PLEX - NO financial support to the game – if you were ganking “if” would you really spend money you worked for a sub?. come on think it over.

Fact - the price of plex increased at a staggering rate, basic business indicates this is because less plex in circulation, when any object becomes in demand the price will fluctuate accordingly to supply.

How do we get PLEX we acquire it with real money and that’s something in high sec gankers don’t need to spend money on anything - playing for free means exactly that - they play for free, sure great for buying PLEX from in game market for ISK they got from ganking,
But not good for CCP as sale of plex for real money has got low - why has it got low - read above :slight_smile:

Don’t get confused that in-game theoretical real-world isk or plex pays wage to keep game going, it is Theoretical money , 2b isk = 500 plex so 5 ganks = 10b = 2500 = 3 months free game time happy days
got zKillboard se how much new players lose, yes their own fault, but lol another but
look at the damage its done to game over the years

Alliance / corps - ill try name a few lol ok ok dont copy paste this part its been a long time lol . test alliance / razor / brave / goonswarm / Pandemic Horde anyways, when a new player starts they may need xzy skill points or they believe they can go it alone ect, but when they join an alliance / corp that get to become part of something, sure they will go pop but its not because they were ganked way in null sec - because of PvP in an alliance war, they would arrange

battles for new players, not sure if they still do.
The point is they are more likely to get a sub to help them self enjoy the game / buy that ratting ship ect that is where subscriptions peek
That is how PLEX is brought with real money then converted into theoretical game currency.

Have you ever herd that saying - “sh~@ sticks” ? years ago when I played around its peek, think of all the things eve offers think on what iv said about alliance/ corps, wh, ect, ppl didnt quit because of the fun they had, they quit because they new gankers with there 20+atls didn’t give them a chance.

To little to late from CCP - shi~ sticks.

pls got look the numbers in zKillboard – even now with new rules, and when I played wow I stuck in fraction war / butit was full of jita gankers wth 20+atls, they have top end ships bumping at jits station,

you know sometimes when you play a game for as long as we have, more you as I quit 2 years ago or so, its hard to change our views / expectations.

PPL quit the game way before CCP changed the rules, mostly for this reason as new players, but you have no intention to step away from the game look at the game as a whole, your stuck in 2009 2011 when game was at it peek (different ppl different years)
The number that quit from 2009 to 2011 is far greater then 2019 to 2023,

Pierre de Bricassart, said were in a Newdo forum ? so lol maybe we move it to another part of eve forum lol
I’m not trying to change your views, you have had them for 12+years, games develop, they change like it or not, we can change with them or quit, from start of covid19 across the world gaming community’s changed as did games, and how ppl play them.

anyways this has been great, thanx

38

Im wondering why you can’t

Let’s say for the sake of argument again that you’re 100% correct. Why on Gods green earth did they keep Ganking for 20+ years and never ever ever totally get rid of it early on? If you and I are both following your logic it’s because it is giving them more real life dollars because we are assuming you are 100% true:

Look man, there’s only so many times I can listen to you and wonder how you can state facts and then come to the completely opposite conclusion than your own facts point to.

I tried to help and say „look maybe it isnt 100% of gameplay changes are because of monetization“ and give you an out but you keep insisting for reasons I don’t know why.

The rest of your stuff is hard to engage in because it’s all over the place about ganking being „damaging to the game“ which is where your true colors come out.

You posted this in the Newbie Q&A corner for who knows what reason why but I’ll elaborate history for the newbies sake.

Ganking has always been a part of the game, by choice of CCP Games (monetization analyses included). Piracy in general — including ganking — has always been a part of the game. Including and especially in high sec! High sec has always been some of the most dangerous space in the game due to the sheer number of randos. Pirates have always lived there galore.

Would it surprise anyone if I mentioned 12 years ago people were complaining about pirates even then? Not just Ganking, but all forms of piracy. Complain complain complain. „It hurts the game“ and „they can’t make money“ and „Eve is dying“.

However, the last 10 years have seen mechanics introduced or changed that had eliminated whole gameplay of piracy in high sec. Real players left because they can’t play the game anymore and their friends left too. Do you know what the complaining players have all said? It wasn’t „oh thank you CCP good job now I’m gonna get all my buds to play now.“ It was „OMG CCP you f*led up and didn’t go far enough you need to do more.“

It is endless whining and complaining until high sec is perfectly safe space. Low sec is next — you can search the forums this year and find people complaining about „gate guns too weak in lowsec“ and „we need concord lite in lowsec“. The whining about the dangers never ever stop.

And all through this the PCU has been dropping because the game is boring when you don’t have pirate villains to overcome and sit and watch rock numbers go up.

Your endless „oh think of the monetization“ is not new. Newbie pilots get the wrong idea from folks like you. The game is most fun when you can get the SP and assets to take revenge and spin great player stories. But the endless whining of players who can’t because they won’t (for whatever personal reason - „I’m a goodie two shoes Moral player and they are IRL evil people“ kind of BS or other) just goes on and on.

So with that out of the way you have voices like mine that refuse to be silenced. There’s a lot of people I still talk to sitting on tons of assets and billions of ISK and things like T2 BPOs who don’t come back because of how boring and non-piracy-friendly the game has become. That’s a lot of proven customers that could return. Real dollars.

For newbies to learn: The endless whining about piracy comes from both folks who just had a bad time (hence „link lossmail“ is a reply after a rant), and from people who try to do psychological ops in the forums. There’s a fair few „forum alts“ that pop up regularly on behalf of several different people that try to manufacture artificial „outrage“ over ganking. They subvert the community here in the process and wind up trashing the place. They could be from Nullsec blocs (and often are) just as easily as high sec residents.

People who do often voice „pro-dangerous-universe“ ideas tend to be consistent and post with main characters. We try to bring up the community but often are subject to this wall of garbage.

Which is why a lot of us simply make fun of the whiners instead. It’s an endless tirade of propaganda and whining and „what about X“ and at a certain point we just don’t care to hash out the ideas anymore in the face of „is this forum stranger earnest or a troll alt“.

So look, I get it. You don’t like Ganking and you believe CCP could make more money doing something different.

I disagree but none of your fundamental reasons are convincing nor are they particularly new arguments.

3 Likes
39

That is simply wildly incorrect. Multiple alphas could never be logged in together. Every ganker you see with 15 accounts has always had 15 omega accounts. You have to at least understand the game mechanics if you want to start railing against ganking.

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40

I was gonna mention what wes did. You cannot log in 2 or more alphas from the same machine or same household at the same time. Even if its two separate people, ccp doesnt allow it. So yes if its 2 or more alts, its one person on omega accounts wither plexxed in game or they subbed

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The Prophet spoke often of the sophistry of sock puppet clones.

A shame that capsuleers are literally immortal, and yet still hide behind the safety of anonymous clones.

It is a shame they must live with I suppose.

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Hi Gix_Firebrand. Still in the business of trying to upset people I see.
I understand. Can’t teach an old ape new tricks.

43

The Prophet wonders if those who engage in this puppetry just spent their time teaching the young ones how to survive in this universe, as opposed to crying, just how great our civilization could be.

Our forefathers built this gate for a reason. And we? We have squandered this opportunity.

Maybe our time has already came and went, and we live now in shallower times.

Yet the Prophet sees promise in some of the younglings.

Hoping they will resist the siren call of endless victimhood and instead embrace the joy of being a true capsuleer.

Knowing that death is a friend that always finds you and that it is always your fault. Learning how to live side by side with the specter. Not fearing it or crying to some eldritch overlord to change your reality to avoid it.

I too have hope. I see spurts of it here and there. One can only hope the younglings see through sophistry and false words.

To learn the real truth of life in New Eden. Safe is only what you make. And it is up to you to make it.

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44

Your reasoning in debate is border line narcissism, you have on multiple time fabricated the truth, accusing of false allegations, you distort the truth to fit you narrative in thinking.
Your option is held in such high esteem that others are left to agree and follow your narrative of thinking.
If that person dares to disagrees or dares to challenge you with evidence, you at hand dismiss it, insult and throws wild accusations.

Definition of Narcissism — Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental health condition in which people have an unreasonably high sense of their own importance. They need and seek too much attention and want people to admire them. People with this disorder may lack the ability to understand"

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I don’t hate ganking, never did, I stated that multiple times but you changed the narrative to fit your argument.
You can live in 2009 to 20011 in eve game time, but times moved forward, game designs change, they evolve constantly, learn to move with that or keep hammering your own ideological thoughts on days gone by.
I started to copy and paste your contradictions, and other things, but after 10 minutes I thought - no point a narcist will always have a closed mind, will always be right, so let it be.
You know maybe you were right CCP changed the rules on ganking to force that small number of gankers you said, to obtain subs like you said.

Serious note – if you know there is a player shortage and you that CCP choices are pushing ppl away and going against that small group like you said its a small group, sold out to South Korea-based games studio Pearl Abyss / – just remember time is your biggest asset, don’t waste on a game your not happy with.