Hey, CCP. i know what your doing and i dont think its going to work

[Goe_Rilla]

haha, did you see that precious Naga fit ?

That thing had 35 killmarks ^^ mostly just Hecates and ballsy AFs

And yes “until”, but that wont be for a long time as I am pretty much officially retired from this game, too much timesink.

[Tipa_Riot]

You mean the big Hecate? Yes, nice inspiration. What imps?

[Goe_Rilla]

HG Snakes for transversal against dual web friggies

Really try it, most people expect your usual Rail Naga

[Hug_Motsu]

Ok, let’s all get on the same page first.
statement: CCP is working to make the vast majority of EVE players space-poor.
this is done by a multitude of changes in the game. some listed in the original post.
why?
CCP wants to relive the heydays of EVE, where ■■■■ mattered and a loss mail was 12 months’ worth of isk grind. or… whatever, it doesn’t matter why.

all that matters is it sucks.
CCP painted itself into a corner, CCPLS be grownups and take responsibility, and communicate your vision for the future EVE… I’m pretty sure we can figure out a middle ground that is exciting for all.

@Krimmins

I think what we need here is just more bang for your buck. People should be rewarded for spending $, and penalized for not. There should be a quick and easy shortcut for every ship you want to fly, like 20 bucks for a HAC or 50 bucks for a FAX Machine.

By doing this, CCP makes money, and we get more content. It’s a win-win!

Yes and no.
The “expert systems” are a great way to introduce what your saying.
“yeah alright ccp, I spend 20$, I get the expert systems (and enough plex for a decent fitted ship…?) and now i can try this niche out for a week, if it’s fun i know what to train next!”
Also, id like to point out, as long as an account is an omega, they have indirectly or directly paid ccp, so they don’t need to be “penalized”.

@"Edmorte_Fehrnah

Ok, before addressing all that was spoken this point is very curious. Why expert systems are money and not PLEX?
CCP gave up on keeping PLEX meaningful, it’s just a conversion of money to digital money where the print machine is going on crazy. Economy dictates that this leads to inflation since nothing is backed by PLEX other than few stuff and acc time, it’s safe to assume few very rich people are trying to keep the price and people are still looking for PLEX to get some sweet omega time.
CCP should have made the expert systems to be obtained by PLEX, so the more stuff backed by PLEX the more intrinsic value attributed to it. But what they are doing is the opposite, the market is suffering the hit.

Well… as you say.
the thing that is plex is tied to is omega multiplied by numbers of alt’s
(and some various stuff that “everyone” is guessing isn’t a big market - but who knows other than ccp)

I’m pretty sure expert systems are tied to RL$, cause expert systems still in its infancy, and plex is a complex ecosystem that is in a little bit of turmoil, perhaps.

i too hope the expert system roadmap involves plex.

@"Edmorte_Fehrnah

CCP fked up the free marketing introducing an infinite unlimited amount of PLEX and not enough sink to it, now the consequences are becoming apparent, the stuff you guys are complaining are, in principle, side effects.

It’s safe to assume the ship is sinking. It’s like a government accepting Bitcoin instead of their FIAT. It smells!

there is not an unlimited amount of plex, plex limit is set to something abstract as what individual people deem to be “worthy”, and also it’s hard capped to their individual RL$.
my individual plex limit is 1000plex/month from in-game isk.

Also… Let’s not kid ourselves, there has never been a truly “free market”, anywhere in any universe, pixelated or IRL.
EVE market is free from direct interfering by CCP, but everything they do affect the market indirectly.
And now, CCP wants us to spend more hours in space, with a higher “r-isk on-field” for less pay.
and… it smells bad, I agree.

[Hug_Motsu]

@Tipa_Riot

The ingame currency is ISK. You can’t buy ships or implants with RL cash, only with ISK. The access to ISK is open to everybody, be it with PLEX or ingame “work”. The one may take longer than the other, which was the deal since PLEX was introduced. But that’s not “pay2win” because who wins a fight depends mostly on RL skills, including the decision whether or how to fight.

@Algathas

Only if there were items that you could only get with real that were better than normal items and/or if they made it very extremely onerous to acquire items in game so that clearly most people would spend rl to get them instead of a ridiculous effort spent in game. The latter is of course a sliding scale. How do you make it tough enough to catch enough lazy people’s cash while keeping enough regular gamers happy and thinking it is not too tough. CCP seems to be sliding the gears towards making isk tougher, likely increasing the amount of people that say screw it and sell plex to get isk, while still people are willing to deal with the extra effort of the updates.

Ok first off, your both right… but… my point is this!
take a guy who never played EVE, clone him twice.

Clone A has $$$ for plex (injectors, skillbook, ships, mods etc)
Clone B has only $ for omega, and have to grind the mining anoms for isk.

the clone’s playtime is the same.

I’d say clone A will evolve at a faster pace than Clone B, when it comes to PVP.

So in many ways, it is “pay2win”.

the same Clone-experiment, but Clone A only has $$$ for expertsystem, the outcome is the same… as Clone A will have earnt more isk from mining then Clone B, thus… A will have more “learning money”

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Hug_Motsu

I’d say clone A will evolve at a faster pace than Clone B, when it comes to PVP.

Since 95% of the game’s population doesn’t engage in any form of PvP aside from being occasional “victims,” it doesn’t really matter, since both players will be similarly efficient at destroying players who want to have absolutely nothing to do with fighting other players. In nonconsensual PvP, understanding strategy, psychology, and baiting tactics is what determines success, and not what kind of ships you can fly.

Of the remaining 5% of the population that does seek out PvP, most of it happens in a group environment in which N+1 is the determining factor, and not player skill or experience. This leaves a very tiny fraction of the overall PvP where the fights are both consensual and balanced, such as arenas or picking duels outside hub stations, where better ships, gear, and skills can provide an advantage.

[Aiko_Danuja]

@Hug_Motsu

$$$

Social skills are way more important than money. If people like you, they will fund you. If you don’t have social skills, it doesn’t matter how much money you throw at the game.

[Hug_Motsu]

@Aiko_Danuja

Social skills are way more important than money. If people like you, they will fund you. If you don’t have social skills, it doesn’t matter how much money you throw at the game.

best ship is friendship. true.
but… well, they are clones, so they have the same amount of social skills.

@Destiny_Corrupted

Since 95% of the game’s population doesn’t engage in any form of PvP aside from being occasional “victims,” it doesn’t really matter, since both players will be similarly efficient at destroying players who want to have absolutely nothing to do with fighting other players. In nonconsensual PvP, understanding strategy, psychology, and baiting tactics is what determines success, and not what kind of ships you can fly.

Of the remaining 5% of the population that does seek out PvP, most of it happens in a group environment in which N+1 is the determining factor, and not player skill or experience.

i am a PvE carebear living in null, I don’t know much about PVP… more then, yes. PVP is a fleet endeavor.
According to my perspective, PVP happens at gate camps, more often than not it’s just 1 dude with multiple accounts… claims he does it for “fun”, but we all know he just an immature pleb that wants to make other unwilling participants feel his RL pain.

anyways, in a straight-up 1vs1 …
You learn from mistakes. Someone with isk can make a lot of mistakes, a lot faster than someone that don’t have isk’s… it doesn’t matter if the “mistake”/loss-mail is 10m, 100m, or 1b.

and tbh, this is how it is… survival of the fittest etc etc

[Algathas]

@Hug_Motsu

I’d say clone A will evolve at a faster pace than Clone B, when it comes to PVP.

Likely clone A will “evolve” by losing their expensive ship purchases a lot harder as even though they bought and injected stuff they still won’t necessarily know what they are doing any more than B.

Clone B might not end up behind if they learn to play the game. I know plenty of guys in slicers / drams, etc (hell even regular T1 frigates and cruisers) that a newer player can max out skills quickly and kill much bigger ships very consistently solo. Clone B might be stuck in a frigate longer but learn it well and solo poor clone A wallet warrior who is in a bigger ship with his “bigger is better” mentality.

Now you might say “But, clone A can learn the game fast too so he will win!”. This falls out the window when you think of what type of person is behind the toon of clone A. A person that doesn’t want to learn who has the bigger is better mentality and wants it now. The average clone A person is likely going to end up as food for clone B. Their loot will be paying for accelerating clone B’s upgrades. Sure there will be some A’s that somehow defy that, but they will be few and far between.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

True one-on-one fights happen so rarely that none of this is even a consideration.

[Xeux]

I have met quite a few sabres, 1-on-1.

[Hug_Motsu]

@Algathas

Now you might say “But, clone A can learn the game fast too so he will win!”. This falls out the window when you think of what type of person is behind the toon of clone A. A person that doesn’t want to learn who has the bigger is better mentality and wants it now. The average clone A person is likely going to end up as food for clone B. Their loot will be paying for accelerating clone B’s upgrades. Sure there will be some A’s that somehow defy that, but they will be few and far between.

Yes, I too imagined this in my head, I arrived at the same conclusion that clone B would, catch up and overcome clone A’s “skill level”
but then i started to think…
our fallacy is that we envision two different personalities to the clones. as if they were two different people. they are not. (they cant be in a comparison, as it would be comparing a banana to an airplane)

They are the same mind and “attitude” towards “bigger is better”.
they both sit and learn first frigates, then destroyers then cruisers… etc etc

@Destiny_Corrupted

True one-on-one fights happen so rarely that none of this is even a consideration.

yes, also cloning is pretty much frowned upon…

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Xeux

I have met quite a few sabres, 1-on-1.

That “quite a few” is still an extraordinarily tiny fraction of the tens of thousands of PvP encounters that happen every day.

The Sabre is also a very “static” encounter. First of all, it’s most likely using a scout, and can choose which battles to take and which to run away from. Second, this particular sort of encounter means that at least one party is unable to “pay to win” because the nature of their act necessitates the use of a very specific ship and setup every single time.

[tutucox_Khamsi]

lies
pvp happens solo all the time

zkillboard.com / Kills (Solo)

[Hug_Motsu]

@tutucox_Khamsi

lies
pvp happens solo all the time

lol… click on the killmails and look at involved pilots… “solo”…
i clicked on like 8? 5 had npc on km, 3 was t3c/bombers vs t1 frigates…

clearly, its all either “baited in highsec” or “pay2win” ganks…
no sorry dude. solo pvp is dead outside of arena.

[tutucox_Khamsi]

ill not argue
solo pvp is a thing
FACT
you guys can continue your little conspiracy
im to tired

[Hug_Motsu]

yeah solo pvp is happening, sure, i dont argue against it… but the % of solo-pvp is minimal.

[tutucox_Khamsi]

several pages of kills a day

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@tutucox_Khamsi

lies
pvp happens solo all the time

Just for the past few hours since EVE midnight, about 6 pages of kills with a whole bunch being ganks and such (i.e. kills that were one-sided and not fights at all), and fleet fight kills in which there’s just one “final blow” party because the enemy ship probably died so fast that others couldn’t latch on to it. Compared to nearly 40 pages of kills in general, including the above.

It’s safe to say that one-on-one fights make up less than 2% of kill board activity.

Once again, you’re confusing kills with just one party making the killing blow with actual one-on-one fights. Do they happen? Yes, they do. But they’re exceptionally rare compared to all other forms of conflict.

Edit with stronger statistics:

• about 16,700 kills per day
• “solo” ratio of about 12% (let’s say 1/8)
• 2,000 “solo” kills per day
• remove all suicide-ganks and associated kills (target is a non-combatant or criminal)
• remove all fleet fight kills with just one person on the kill mail (e.g. frigates insta-popped)
• remove all non-combatant kills (e.g. scanning frigates, exploration ships)

You’re left with like ~100-200 daily kills between two actual combatants.

[Xanthellus]

Solo is not the same as 1v1. Solo is 1vX.