High Sec Logistics Mechanic Adjustment Request/Suggestion

No mission runner is going to wait for me to burn through their mission gates with my Orca or shoot me with an Orca on grid. I have to point the mission runner right there with the ship I am in, at which point I can no longer swap ships as I have a weapons timer.

I know what I’m talking about here. There seriously isn’t a reason for suspects to group. None of the roles for a suspect setup are suitable for a player to fill save the person actually doing the baiting. Furthermore nobody in the baiting channels are grouping up. You have to be realistic, a support role that a HUMAN can fill has got to be more engaging than being a mobile backpack.

I said it before but I’ll say it again to be clear. If I didn’t have an Orca alt I would not have access to an Orca. No player in there right mind is going to sit there and wait for me to get shot. It’s not like industrialists are begging to join our group… It’s combat interested individuals that want to join, and for us to have a place for them there needs to be a COMBAT ROLE for them to fill.

And I said this in my other thread but I’ll say it here to be clear.

I’m not having an issue finding targets. I’m not having an issue successfully killing the targets. This isn’t even about the strength or weakness of the mechanic itself. It’s about needing incentives in place for suspects to fleet up and/or recruit new players. As it stands there is no way for Suspects to support each other and as such we’re no longer playing together… in an mmo… or recruiting/training new players for that matter.

oh well… find a new hobby in eve… the blog had nothing about suspect baiters and what not, it was centered around punishing neutral logi when they couldn’t have the punishment to begin with. HTFU and find something else to do.

I’ve literally found something else to do… You’ve yet to combat any point I’ve brought up with any substance. This is exactly why few suspects even post here. We have to give a freaking master-class on mechanics before the discussion can even start because the only people who reply are either angry carebears or low/null pvpers with some sort of messed up space bushido complex.

While your at it, change the neutral logi for wardecs too.

Have logi ‘inherit’ a timer from the person they rep much like they inherit a weapons timer. But the timer is the time left on the wardec.

This doesn’t change much, they still can’t be attacked before they turn up and get used, and since it’s likely they were only needed for one fight most of the wars (assuming fighting even happens), they don’t suffer from the timer much either.
I.E. It would just bring the problems back again that the change was designed to eliminate, it’s a bad idea.

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If you desire elaboration, please see all the responses in the last thread you created about this (which is not only still open, but quite active).

Having two threads on this is indeed confusing. I would propose that the two be consolidated here. As it stands now, below is a copy of my response to the other thread:

Bump from a fellow baiter.

I think the discussion surrounding the role of alts vs that of friends is a good lens through which to view this proposal.

I think we could all agree with @hellokittyonline that (e.g.) sitting around in an orca waiting for someone to shoot your buddy then pressing “warp to” when they get shot and parking an orca next to them to let them reship is not very engaging, even if that were mechanically possible in the game (which it isn’t, with the exception of some edge cases). I would not wish that gameplay on anyone. I think we could all agree that some very narrow roles simply are simply not active enough to justify a person spending their life-hours on them.

However, I think we can also all agree that for a lot of people (I recognize that not for everyone), playing with friends is more fun than playing alone running a bunch of alts. I think this is the core of Hellokitty’s argument. Of course we could have logi alts before the change, but because it’s more fun to play with others, we chose to have logi friends.

The criminalization of neutral logi eliminated the one role that was active enough to justify the involvement of another “real” person. There are a number of reasons why this role was engaging, not the least of which is the fact that a logi ship blinking yellow would often lead the mark to shoot the logi ship, resulting in aggression timers being “spread,” whereupon the logi pilot could reship into a combat ship.

The situation now is pretty stupid. We were given exactly the tools we need to play this solo - triglavian t2 ships - at about the same time as neutral logi was criminalized. The result is that instead of needing to spread aggression to take down an extra tanky battleship, I can simply wait until my nergal ramps up to its (admittedly stupid) top DPS. From this perspective, a mission runner that shot a suspect worm before the logi change and introduction of trig ships had more chances to survive than someone who shoots a nergal now. All that was necessary before was to not spread aggression to the logi ships, bring friends, and then chose your targets focusing on one suspect player on grid at a time. Now you have a few minutes until a nergal ramps up to 700 DPS.

I support this. The game very clearly knows the difference between a limited engagement and war aggression, thus it should be simple enough for CCP to retain the much-needed removal of neutral logi from wardecs but allow it in limited engagements.

Let’s talk mechanics. First, to be completely clear, this is NOT about neutral logi for suspect. This is about neutral logi for limited engagements. There are two ways to generate an LE: accepting a duel or shooting a suspect.

Why should neutral logi be allowed to interfere with a duel? Because this is Eve, and Eve has never been about “fair” play. If you can get someone in a duel and then get reps that become valid targets to all of highsec, you won the fight by fighting dirty and taking a risk. It happens.

Why should neutral logi be allowed to rep suspects? Because it’s an escalation in combat. You engage a suspect. You get them pointed then two of your friends land. His friends/alts land and deliver reps. If you’re smart, you won’t engage unless you’ve got something in reserve for that possibility. One of my favorite things to do back when neutral logi was a thing was to drop a full neut bhaalgorn on grid and remove their reps.

Note one very important detail here: non of this combat begins without both parties accepting the risk of the fight. This isn’t a wardec where you’re forced to defend or lose assets. This isn’t a gank. where the math was done long before the first catalyst was on dscan. You were invited to fight, and engaged.

While we’re talking about highsec combat: can we also fix people storing ships in maintenance bays while they’re being shot at? It’s tiring watching these elite highsec warriors run away after saving their ship with a bowhead every time they get in over their heads. CONSEQUENCES ARE IMPORTANT.

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Only in HS will you find a bowhead show up for you to dump your ship and warp away in a pod. Anywhere else the ship would be pointed as it landed on grid to help you. If you can’t dock in a upwell structure while being pointed you shouldn’t be able to put your ship in a MX bay.

The rest of what you say, I disagree. There are more mission runners now engaging suspects then ever before. This change has driven more content. I was not a fan of the change at first, but I see the effect it had.

It’s almost like sometimes they are bored and have enough isk to replace their ship, so will throw the dice they can take that ship in front of them, knowing it doesn’t have 20 logi backing it up or something right? :slight_smile:

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No. This was the case in the past and it was bad mechanics, as it allowed insecure snow-flake cowards to gang-up and spider-rep the suspect combatant, thus ensuring victory. Clear example: cruiser A vs cruiser B with 3 Praxises wapring in to rep cruiser B. Three Praxises would ensure that all of cruiser A’s damage would be repped and if cruiser A would engage any of the Praxises, then it would trigger a limited engagement with it, allowing the Praxis to pull out drones and attack it.
Get over it! High-sec favours more honourable 1 vs 1 now. If you’d have any value, you’d go to Low-Sec, Null-Sec or Wormhole space, where you can logi-rep all you want. But I think we all know you will never do that, coward, because… he-he-he! You don’t have what it takes!

Again, I am doubling the relevant aspects of my response from the other thread. Can the two be consolidated?

Adrian, I am not sure you read what has been said before. The problem is not that the elimination of neutral logi made the gameplay more risky. We adapted very well to the changes. You of all people should know there are many tricks in our bags - you use some yourself! The problem is that that change atomized the suspect community. The mechanical change affected how social the gameplay is. It eliminated a role that used to be performed by baiters-in-training and pretty much the only aspect of the playstyle that made it suitable for fleets.

Speaking personally, the change did not and will not drive me out of the playstyle. As @hellokittyonline mentioned above, we also still hang out on comms and share war stories. However, we have lost all reasons to recruit or to play alongside each other (as opposed to in parallel to each other).

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Sounds like you guys have enough to hit up low sec as a small gang and so some damage. If you all want to play along side each other fleet up and go roaming. Seems like you’ll have a lot more kills doing that.

I do not PvP for honor, I PvP for isk. There is little to no isk to be made in low sec from PvP.

EDIT: Furthermore, cap ships are lame.

“PvP comunity”? Honey, you are no PvP’er and not part of any PvP-anything. You are just a fragile gang-noob incapable of waging a propper 1 vs 1 fight. Your problem is that you are a High-Sec snow-flake. You want the freedom to roam and set-up while protected by CONCORD but don’t want CONCORD to protect others from your lop-sided-unfair executions. But luckily for you High-Sec is just a small part of EVE and there are actually lots more systems where you could practice your operation: Low-Sec, Null-Sec, J-Space and the newly-formed, just for you ‘elite’ PvP’ers - Pochven. You should man-up, grow a pair, harden-up and visit some of these spaces and come back covered in glory and loaded with ISK. Although I fear you would only come back battered, bruised and humiliated. Because we both know that your little ruse only worked in High-Sec.

There are far more efficient ways to make ISK than High-Sec PvP. Try any of the following: market PvP, wormhole exploration, abyssal sites (serious ISK if you have the cojones and the skill for T5 and T6’s), clever industry. And if you you like ship vs ship PvP, then know that there are some types of space where you can freely engage and logi rep. I heard they’re called Low-Sec, Null-Sec and J-Space, but I don’t know much about them, I only have several hundred kills in them. Maybe you can explore them and come back loaded with ISK and with some great stories.

according to them, they can’t properly suspect bait, even though the mechanics will allow it in any other space except hisec… but he wants his little neutral logi back, over claims of he can’t play with friends. they can go to low and play together all they want then.


Exactly. Avenue A: just what you said.
Avenue B: for him to grow some balls and be able to do some propper baiting and honourable 1 vs 1 fighting if he’s too scared and afraid to leave High-Sec.
But by now, after reading a slew of his cry-baby rants on the forum (man, does he complainna lot!) it’s clear to me that he is just a fragile High-Sec snow-flake carebear that can’t even take a piss without his friends/ alts holding his weak hand.

calm down, Vexier. Your space bushido is of no value to me. We talked about this.

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