I am requesting that the Limited Engagement Timer created from engaging a Suspect and engaging a War Target be separated.
Furthermore, I would like for the Limited Engagement Timer created from engaging a Suspect to allow the Suspect to receive remote support (namely logistics) from corpmates and have that remote support go Suspect instead of being Concorded.
This would leave the intended mechanic intact as neutral logistics would still get concorded when attempting to assist someone in War combat.
You allow War combatants to have in corp logistics and I would like Suspects to have the same treatment.
Currently: I am suspect, someone shoots me, we have a Limited Engagement Timer. If I receive remote assistance (even if it is a corpmate) the pilot assisting me will be immediately killed by Concord.
This has caused a massive rift in the suspect baiting community as we now have no realistic way to support each other. Furthermore it greatly limits the scope of suspect based engagements in that the person who engages the suspect can bring as many friends as they want (to shoot the suspect) but the suspect has no way of being assisted by his/her allies.
Previously: Remote assistance to a suspect would make the assisting party also go suspect. This was a much better system for multiple reasons.
Suspects would actually have a reason to play together. This is an MMO afterall. As it stands currently, suspects have spread out as it no longer makes sense for us to play together as we have no way to assist each other.
Suspects would actually have a reason to recruit new players and teach them how to be a pirate. CCP has greatly underestimated how powerful of a force the suspect line of play used to be for retaining new players, specifically those interested in combat. Furthermore, as it stands, suspects are incentivized to ransom a new bro for all they are worth. Whereas previous we were incentivized to recruit them and have them train for T1 logi (and over the course of playing with us learn the way of the high sec pirate).
War Decs and Suicide Ganking are less emergent forms of gameplay. The sand-box is shrinking. CCP has to realize that War Decs and Suicide Ganking are very black and white. The engagements very seldom stray from the same few sequence of events. The goal should not be to funnel all of the PvP players into a few lines of play. Rather, to have the mechanics be as open-ended as possible so as to leave space for as many lines of play as possible.
The only thing I would CHANGE about the system we had previously, in regards to Suspects, is to require that remote assistance be in the same corporation as the Suspect.
No, for the reasons mentioned in the previous thread.
You could just not use alts and you could play together.
Utter BS.
You can still suspect bait, itās just not as risk free as before since you canāt have 10 logi sitting there ready to go, people still suspect bait. As shown in your other thread on the same topic.
Why yes, you are allowed to post your idea again but no counter arguments are allowed. Highly mature and evidence of a solid well thought out ideaā¦
As in the previous thread, you just keep going ābut my friendsā while also going on about alts.
Bring a Bowhead and change ships on them. That mechanic is still very much intact. Only in highsec can you have an engagement timer and pointed, scrammed throw your ship in a mx bay and leave in a pod. Or swap into the exact ship that would counter the person attacking you while pointed or scrammed. -Anywhere else theyād just primary your bowhead/Orca.
I was not a fan when they changed the neutral logi but now after seeing it they were successful in making that play style more risky for the baiter.
No mission runner is going to wait for me to burn through their mission gates with my Orca or shoot me with an Orca on grid. I have to point the mission runner right there with the ship I am in, at which point I can no longer swap ships as I have a weapons timer.
I know what Iām talking about here. There seriously isnāt a reason for suspects to group. None of the roles for a suspect setup are suitable for a player to fill save the person actually doing the baiting. Furthermore nobody in the baiting channels are grouping up. You have to be realistic, a support role that a HUMAN can fill has got to be more engaging than being a mobile backpack.
I said it before but Iāll say it again to be clear. If I didnāt have an Orca alt I would not have access to an Orca. No player in there right mind is going to sit there and wait for me to get shot. Itās not like industrialists are begging to join our groupā¦ Itās combat interested individuals that want to join, and for us to have a place for them there needs to be a COMBAT ROLE for them to fill.
And I said this in my other thread but Iāll say it here to be clear.
Iām not having an issue finding targets. Iām not having an issue successfully killing the targets. This isnāt even about the strength or weakness of the mechanic itself. Itās about needing incentives in place for suspects to fleet up and/or recruit new players. As it stands there is no way for Suspects to support each other and as such weāre no longer playing togetherā¦ in an mmoā¦ or recruiting/training new players for that matter.
oh wellā¦ find a new hobby in eveā¦ the blog had nothing about suspect baiters and what not, it was centered around punishing neutral logi when they couldnāt have the punishment to begin with. HTFU and find something else to do.
Iāve literally found something else to doā¦ Youāve yet to combat any point Iāve brought up with any substance. This is exactly why few suspects even post here. We have to give a freaking master-class on mechanics before the discussion can even start because the only people who reply are either angry carebears or low/null pvpers with some sort of messed up space bushido complex.
This doesnāt change much, they still canāt be attacked before they turn up and get used, and since itās likely they were only needed for one fight most of the wars (assuming fighting even happens), they donāt suffer from the timer much either.
I.E. It would just bring the problems back again that the change was designed to eliminate, itās a bad idea.
Having two threads on this is indeed confusing. I would propose that the two be consolidated here. As it stands now, below is a copy of my response to the other thread:
Bump from a fellow baiter.
I think the discussion surrounding the role of alts vs that of friends is a good lens through which to view this proposal.
I think we could all agree with @hellokittyonline that (e.g.) sitting around in an orca waiting for someone to shoot your buddy then pressing āwarp toā when they get shot and parking an orca next to them to let them reship is not very engaging, even if that were mechanically possible in the game (which it isnāt, with the exception of some edge cases). I would not wish that gameplay on anyone. I think we could all agree that some very narrow roles simply are simply not active enough to justify a person spending their life-hours on them.
However, I think we can also all agree that for a lot of people (I recognize that not for everyone), playing with friends is more fun than playing alone running a bunch of alts. I think this is the core of Hellokittyās argument. Of course we could have logi alts before the change, but because itās more fun to play with others, we chose to have logi friends.
The criminalization of neutral logi eliminated the one role that was active enough to justify the involvement of another ārealā person. There are a number of reasons why this role was engaging, not the least of which is the fact that a logi ship blinking yellow would often lead the mark to shoot the logi ship, resulting in aggression timers being āspread,ā whereupon the logi pilot could reship into a combat ship.
The situation now is pretty stupid. We were given exactly the tools we need to play this solo - triglavian t2 ships - at about the same time as neutral logi was criminalized. The result is that instead of needing to spread aggression to take down an extra tanky battleship, I can simply wait until my nergal ramps up to its (admittedly stupid) top DPS. From this perspective, a mission runner that shot a suspect worm before the logi change and introduction of trig ships had more chances to survive than someone who shoots a nergal now. All that was necessary before was to not spread aggression to the logi ships, bring friends, and then chose your targets focusing on one suspect player on grid at a time. Now you have a few minutes until a nergal ramps up to 700 DPS.
I support this. The game very clearly knows the difference between a limited engagement and war aggression, thus it should be simple enough for CCP to retain the much-needed removal of neutral logi from wardecs but allow it in limited engagements.
Letās talk mechanics. First, to be completely clear, this is NOT about neutral logi for suspect. This is about neutral logi for limited engagements. There are two ways to generate an LE: accepting a duel or shooting a suspect.
Why should neutral logi be allowed to interfere with a duel? Because this is Eve, and Eve has never been about āfairā play. If you can get someone in a duel and then get reps that become valid targets to all of highsec, you won the fight by fighting dirty and taking a risk. It happens.
Why should neutral logi be allowed to rep suspects? Because itās an escalation in combat. You engage a suspect. You get them pointed then two of your friends land. His friends/alts land and deliver reps. If youāre smart, you wonāt engage unless youāve got something in reserve for that possibility. One of my favorite things to do back when neutral logi was a thing was to drop a full neut bhaalgorn on grid and remove their reps.
Note one very important detail here: non of this combat begins without both parties accepting the risk of the fight. This isnāt a wardec where youāre forced to defend or lose assets. This isnāt a gank. where the math was done long before the first catalyst was on dscan. You were invited to fight, and engaged.
While weāre talking about highsec combat: can we also fix people storing ships in maintenance bays while theyāre being shot at? Itās tiring watching these elite highsec warriors run away after saving their ship with a bowhead every time they get in over their heads. CONSEQUENCES ARE IMPORTANT.
Only in HS will you find a bowhead show up for you to dump your ship and warp away in a pod. Anywhere else the ship would be pointed as it landed on grid to help you. If you canāt dock in a upwell structure while being pointed you shouldnāt be able to put your ship in a MX bay.
The rest of what you say, I disagree. There are more mission runners now engaging suspects then ever before. This change has driven more content. I was not a fan of the change at first, but I see the effect it had.
Itās almost like sometimes they are bored and have enough isk to replace their ship, so will throw the dice they can take that ship in front of them, knowing it doesnāt have 20 logi backing it up or something right?
No. This was the case in the past and it was bad mechanics, as it allowed insecure snow-flake cowards to gang-up and spider-rep the suspect combatant, thus ensuring victory. Clear example: cruiser A vs cruiser B with 3 Praxises wapring in to rep cruiser B. Three Praxises would ensure that all of cruiser Aās damage would be repped and if cruiser A would engage any of the Praxises, then it would trigger a limited engagement with it, allowing the Praxis to pull out drones and attack it.
Get over it! High-sec favours more honourable 1 vs 1 now. If youād have any value, youād go to Low-Sec, Null-Sec or Wormhole space, where you can logi-rep all you want. But I think we all know you will never do that, coward, becauseā¦ he-he-he! You donāt have what it takes!
Again, I am doubling the relevant aspects of my response from the other thread. Can the two be consolidated?
Adrian, I am not sure you read what has been said before. The problem is not that the elimination of neutral logi made the gameplay more risky. We adapted very well to the changes. You of all people should know there are many tricks in our bags - you use some yourself! The problem is that that change atomized the suspect community. The mechanical change affected how social the gameplay is. It eliminated a role that used to be performed by baiters-in-training and pretty much the only aspect of the playstyle that made it suitable for fleets.
Speaking personally, the change did not and will not drive me out of the playstyle. As @hellokittyonline mentioned above, we also still hang out on comms and share war stories. However, we have lost all reasons to recruit or to play alongside each other (as opposed to in parallel to each other).
Sounds like you guys have enough to hit up low sec as a small gang and so some damage. If you all want to play along side each other fleet up and go roaming. Seems like youāll have a lot more kills doing that.
āPvP comunityā? Honey, you are no PvPāer and not part of any PvP-anything. You are just a fragile gang-noob incapable of waging a propper 1 vs 1 fight. Your problem is that you are a High-Sec snow-flake. You want the freedom to roam and set-up while protected by CONCORD but donāt want CONCORD to protect others from your lop-sided-unfair executions. But luckily for you High-Sec is just a small part of EVE and there are actually lots more systems where you could practice your operation: Low-Sec, Null-Sec, J-Space and the newly-formed, just for you āeliteā PvPāers - Pochven. You should man-up, grow a pair, harden-up and visit some of these spaces and come back covered in glory and loaded with ISK. Although I fear you would only come back battered, bruised and humiliated. Because we both know that your little ruse only worked in High-Sec.
