High Sec Logistics Mechanic Adjustment Request/Suggestion

Council Of Stellar Management Assembly Hall
#1

I’m aware that this is a duplicate of my post here: High Sec Logistics Mechanic Adjustment Request/Suggestion

I was told by multiple sources to post it here. Since I’ve gotten no CSM/GM response on my other thread I’ll give it a shot.

@CSM

I am requesting that the Limited Engagement Timer created from engaging a Suspect and engaging a War Target be separated.

Furthermore, I would like for the Limited Engagement Timer created from engaging a Suspect to allow the Suspect to receive remote support (namely logistics) from corpmates and have that remote support go Suspect instead of being Concorded.

This would leave the intended mechanic intact as neutral logistics would still get concorded when attempting to assist someone in War combat.

You allow War combatants to have in corp logistics and I would like Suspects to have the same treatment.

Currently: I am suspect, someone shoots me, we have a Limited Engagement Timer. If I receive remote assistance (even if it is a corpmate) the pilot assisting me will be immediately killed by Concord.

This has caused a massive rift in the suspect baiting community as we now have no realistic way to support each other. Furthermore it greatly limits the scope of suspect based engagements in that the person who engages the suspect can bring as many friends as they want (to shoot the suspect or even logi the target) but the suspect has no way of being assisted by his/her allies.

Previously: Remote assistance to a suspect would make the assisting party also go suspect. This was a much better system for multiple reasons.

  1. Suspects would actually have a reason to play together. This is an MMO afterall. As it stands currently, suspects have spread out as it no longer makes sense for us to play together as we have no way to assist each other.
  2. Suspects would actually have a reason to recruit new players and teach them how to be a pirate. CCP has greatly underestimated how powerful of a force the suspect line of play used to be for retaining new players, specifically those interested in combat. Furthermore, as it stands, suspects are incentivized to ransom a new bro for all they are worth. Whereas previous we were incentivized to recruit them and have them train for T1 logi (and over the course of playing with us learn the way of the high sec pirate).
  3. War Decs and Suicide Ganking are less emergent forms of gameplay. The sand-box is shrinking. CCP has to realize that War Decs and Suicide Ganking are very black and white. The engagements very seldom stray from the same few sequence of events. The goal should not be to funnel all of the PvP players into a few lines of play. Rather, to have the mechanics be as open-ended as possible so as to leave space for as many lines of play as possible.

The only thing I would CHANGE about the system we had previously, in regards to Suspects, is to require that remote assistance be in the same corporation as the Suspect.

<3 Kitty

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The Protected Criminal
#2

Obviously, you guys preferred the system where you could engage targets that couldn’t fight back, and if they tried, you had numbers and logi to make it a 100% sure outcome. The system was changed specifically because of this.

I’m sure you guys can come up with a work around if you think about it long enough.

2 Likes
#3

@Brisc_Rubal

Actually it was changed to address neutral logi with regards to war-decs (or that’s what CCP said at least, wouldn’t surprise me if it was indeed a stealth nerf to us directly). The suspect change was a side effect. Just because I had friends and my targets did not, does not make Logi OP. You should not nerf groups because solo players wanna keep playing solo. If mission runners in the same system simply supported each other we would have no chance but they do not and still somehow WE get nerfed for it.

And are you seriously throwing out the “targets that cant fight back” mantra as if every PvP player doesn’t hunt this same type of target at one time or another? Furthermore, how is it that a Battleship can’t fight back vs a Frigate huh? Because they took a fight they weren’t prepared for? and I should be nerfed because of their unpreparedness? You seem to forget that suspect baits are an OPT IN engagement. Someone has to actually shoot me for the engagement to start.

We have already found methods that work and I have another method prepared for when CCP undoubtedly nerfs the one we’re currently using. The change to logistics didn’t even help the targets that “couldn’t fight back”. They’re still dying in a fire. All it did was make it where when a fleet actually wants to fight us, we can’t bring a fleet to fight back. Less fun for everyone.

I figure this is all falling on deaf ears considering your tone though. I can tell CCP has been trying to bubblewrap high-sec for a long time so that they can protect their solo player whales. I get it, they’re easy money.

#4

This seems like a reasonable suggestion. I’m a little disappointed in the CSM dismissal that focuses on perceived intent rather than the solution itself.
Suspect timers don’t really factor in to our FW, but it seems weird to say that you nerfed logi help to avoid 100% win conditions, but then that same mechanic sets up 100% win conditions for suspect attackers. Maybe I don’t understand it, though.

1 Like
#5

@Caillech

No you understand it perfectly. As it stands currently, someone could shoot a suspect and warp in 20 logi (have them all shoot the suspect to get an LE) and recieve remote reps while the suspect can have exactly 0 support.

#6

If the goal is to be able to work together and have a path to recruit people and be able to have them participate, maybe logistics may not necessarily be the answer. However, I still believe it’s a fair point to see that he was hoping to have a type of game play where someone who was new to his style of play would be able to learn and participate.

I feel like it’s short sighted to focus so much on the logistics portion when the point is clearly asking if it would be possible for there to be an avenue where he could share his experience with others in another way than just sharing KMs or otherwise.

#7

Yea but that’s development that I don’t really see CCP doing. Logistics is already in the game. It would be very simple for CCP to make this slight change to Logistics to bring things back into balance.

#8

You think it would be a slight change. You’d like it to be a slight change. It may actually be a really complex change, depending on how much code CCP re-wrote to make the original change (how much of the mechanics are disaster code vs cleaner new code) and how many interface points there are which, while invisible to us, have an impact in how the flags function.

I still think n+1 gameplay with neutral ships is a pretty meh scenario. It would be nice if there was a way to add pilots to the engagement, on both sides of the engagement, with the same rules for both sides, and without said pilots being ‘safe until/unless needed’ for the engagement. Something like special fleet rules for sharing non-war limited engagements when on-grid - don’t ask me how to make it work, I can see a lot of potential issues, it’s just a very rough idea.

#9

But this is also a fallacy. People say logi is n+1 but it is not. That is to say the counter to logi is not more logi. It’s more dps. Also I’m sorry but if they have the ability to break it then they can fix it too.

#10

This is now her third thread about this in under a month. Maybe she’s hoping critics of the idea will get tired of batting it down, which will make it seem like it has less opposition than it really does. Regardless, I’m getting tired of her keep trying to reset the conversation to zero.

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To OP: No for all of the reasons brought up in your previous two threads.

Also, I don’t think it’s going to happen. So, you can probably spare us thread number 4.

1 Like
#11

I’m probably being dense, but I don’t really follow CCP’s logic here.
The suspect flag is a great game add (as someone who just came back from many years off) that provides a risk/reward for something below aggression.
The original fix tried to solve over-support when the suspect is attacked. It seems like the idea here was that suspects could arrange unwinnable conditions (although the aggressors still choose to engage, so I don’t see the original problem).
The solution now allows suspect attackers to arrange unwinnable conditions, but they also have the benefit of choosing the engagement.

So isn’t this worse, in a sense?

#12

You’re not being dense, you’re spot on.

#13

You got nerfed because you were praying on folks who had little to no chance to defend themselves against you. When you guys ever lose a ship that’s not to CONCORD?

Yes, and you’re complaining that when you bait someone into attacking you, you don’t get a 100% I win chance. Sometimes the hustler gets hustled.

That’s why there’s no need for what you’re asking for.

And what you’re suggesting would help this how?

Seriously, there is nothing more annoying than seeing someone make such a self-centered request when the deck is already stacked in their favor.

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#14

The deck isnt stacked in our favor… We might be knowledgeable enough to win despite this fact but the reality is everything you posted here is completely false and clearly coming from a place of “I think you’re a bad person because you play the bad guy in a video game”.

#15

But here, let me be more comprehensive @Brisc_Rubal

So the fact that you brought Concord into this shows your ignorance on the topic. We’re talking about suspect baiting there’s no Concord involved.

Did you read ANYTHING I just wrote? Any engagement I would’ve 100% won with logi, I am still 100% winning without logi. Furthermore, I explained to you quite clearly that my issue is not with success rate and simply with there not being a way or an incentive to coordinate with friends or recruit and train newbros.

Just because I am still successful does not mean the content is better or that the content is balanced. If you based nerfs on how successful I am you would quite literally have to remove PvP combat from High-Sec entirely.

The deck is literally stacked in the attackers favor when before it was even. You are continually mistaking our preparedness as bad balance when it is not. What you were seeing was UNPREPAREDNESS by the person that CHOSE TO ENGAGE ME OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL. It was not imbalanced before, it wasn’t even stacked in our favor, we were merely using the tools that were at EVERYONE’S disposal and our targets did not.

#16

You all are free to play the game however you want. I just don’t see the need to make alterations to it so that you can have an easier time doing what you already do.

Really? Because this is literally what you’re asking for: “Furthermore, I would like for the Limited Engagement Timer created from engaging a Suspect to allow the Suspect to receive remote support (namely logistics) from corpmates and have that remote support go Suspect instead of being Concorded.”

CONCORD’s not involved?

You’ve not made a compelling case as to how this change is somehow going to result in “incentives to coordinate with friends” or “recruit and train newbros.”

No, I’m pointing out that you were actively baiting someone into taking a fight they couldn’t win. Now you’re asking for a fix that seems designed solely to make it more likely that somebody will take your bait because they think they might be able to get some help, when that’s not likely.

I’m still scratching my head as to what the point of this is. If I am misunderstanding your point here, please feel free to explain it better.

#17

@Brisc_Rubal

Again this makes nothing we do easier. Only more interactive. If someone is unprepared enough that I have time to bring in Logistics and still be alive then they weren’t going to kill me without Logi.

Because we keep up with the mechanics. Test every single one as soon as it goes live (often time beforehand on sisi) and are not going to lose a ship to CONCORD. We’re not going to lose a ship to a solo battleship either (save maybe a lucky gecko shot… in which case logi doesn’t save me anyway). I know you’d love a world where a suspect warps in on you in your mission and you blow him up and go about your day but that will quite literally NEVER be common because if it was, it would no longer make sense to do what I do.

I have, but you didn’t read it so I’ll make it again. Currently there is no support role for suspects to take advantage of, at all. That is to say, if I get shot, there is nothing that I can have a friend or new-bro do to be a part of the engagement. As such, all the suspects have split up to different systems as we are no longer able to support each other.

Furthermore, we have no way to recruit and train new-bros. They’re not going to be able to just hop in a bait ship and kill a BS right away without some serious knowledge before-hand. Furthermore they’re not going to have the funds to support losing a bunch of bait ships to learn the ropes (because the fits required are quite expensive, you say we have no risk but I lose 500mil isk frigates literally all the time).

Previously, having logi allowed suspects to bait near each other without merely being each others competition (now the incentive is to play far apart because we cannot support each other and are better off splitting up so we do not interfere with the other person’s bait). Also the incentive was to recruit and train newbros so we could have a bigger fleet for when fleets do engage us. Now we’d just be training our competition.

LOL It doesn’t work like this at ALL. Were I a selfish solo player I wouldn’t be asking for this change because removing the possibility of me bringing logi actually makes it MORE likely that someone will engage me.

Furthermore, before, if they had friends (which some do) we would happily engage in fleet combat. Now? We just move on to the next guy. Less fun for everyone.

Changes like this literally make everything worse. We are incentivized to ONLY go for solo players now. We are incentivized to ONLY play solo. And we have literally 0 incentive to recruit.

#18

Your killboard is literally all CONCORD killing you.

#19

@Brisc_Rubal
This is my suicide ganking alt.
It’s pretty telling that you can’t tell the difference though.

#20

No, I can tell exactly what it is.

If you want my help, insulting me isn’t going to get you where you want to go. Just saying.