High sec should be.. more safe

[Knowledgeminer]

@Mark_Marconi

No need to read the replies. It will be the usual suspects saying how this is a PVP game

Sage remarks like this make you look so smart and able/willing to understand anything about the game…

@Mark_Marconi

even though without PvE there is no game

And you think that proves in any way that it’s not a PvP game? LOL.

@Anderson_Geten

Because you can buy things from others.

Whatever the reason, the fact remains that you don’t have to do anything in EvE, and hence pretending otherwise is complete ■■■■■■■■.

@Anderson_Geten

what you bought came from farm. You litterally delegate farm to someone else, whom you pay for it.

So what? How does this change the fact that you don’t have to farm in EvE, which is what you used and continue using to try to disqualify EvE as a PvP-centric game?

@Anderson_Geten

You never have to do anything in a game where you can pay your gameplay.

You don’t have to do anything in EvE even if you don’t pay for your gameplay either.

@Anderson_Geten

Still if you want to experiment the game as it is designed, you have to find money, and as such, to farm.

You may try to play word games with this all you want and it still won’t make your point any stronger.

If you want to experiment the game, you have to acquire ISK somehow, yes, but that does not mean you have to farm that ISK with PvE even if you don’t pay for it with IRL money either.

@Anderson_Geten

If you don’t understand, read again.
It means you are wrong.

LOL. Sorry, but your inability to explain some ■■■■■■■■ that makes no sense or is plain wrong is your problem, not mine. In no way talking nonsense proves anyone other than yourself wrong.

I already provided two examples where your assertion that “the PVP in eve comes from the PVE” makes no sense at all, which you’ve conveniently ignored in your reply. Clearly it isn’t me who has understanding problems and needs to read again here…

@Anderson_Geten

That was correct when the game was released but is no more.

Of course, because you say so… No need to check what CCP say about the game themselves. What do they know? We should all listen to Anderson Geten instead…

@Anderson_Geten

@Knowledgeminer

I have absolutely no interest in go looking for

Indeed you have no interest.

Please, let us know more about your word games and abilities to purposely remove the relevant parts of what someone said to make it look like he was saying something else. We’ve never seen you do crap like this before…

@Anderson_Geten

@Knowledgeminer

If I didn’t like EvE or wanted it

Again with strawman.

What strawman? You are the one that made the strawman here by asking “You want to make Eve a PVP centric game?”. I was just replying to that strawman you made by clarifying how I would deal with me wanting EvE to be something it’s not if that was the case…

And where have I ever made a strawman before? Stop projecting your own word games and manipulations on others already. That you’re so used to do them yourself that you think you’ve seen someone do it before when in fact it was you who did is your problem, not mine…

@Anderson_Geten

You can like something ans still want it to evolve for the best.

Of course. Where did I say or mean otherwise? Is that another strawman you’re making here so you may pretend it’s me who’s doing it when I reply?

@Anderson_Geten

When you don’t like something, you don’t criticize it : you badmouth it, which you are so used to do that’s the only thing you actually are intellectually able to do anymore.

ROFLMAO. The only things I badmouth are whiners unwilling to understand the very things they’re crying about and trolls like you, but please tell me more about how intellectually incapable I am…

@Anderson_Geten

It’s pretty obvious that CCP did make what was a PVP game at the time and realized it would be better to make it a PVE game, therefore adding stuff to make it PVE centric.
Well, it’s pretty obvious when you open your eyes. Did you shove a for in your eyeball ?

Just so you know, because you seem to not be aware of this, you claiming something is obvious because you’re incapable of explaining it, but want to keep believing it and ignore all the evidence to the contrary regardless (e.g. what CCP say about their game themselves), does not make it obvious in any way…

You wanting to make us believe that adding PvE content to the game is the same as wanting to make it PvE-centric is a problem with your understanding capabilities, not with anyone’s ability to see the “obvious”…

I love the “CCP realized it would be better” part, btw. Completely made up, LOL.

[Dravick_Afterthought]

@Luscius_Uta

Killing bisons en masse caused them to become an endangered species. When I gank highsec miners, I don’t want them to uninstall and quit EVE, I want them to come back so I can gank them again. That way, they can continue having their fun and I’m continuing having mine.

Not so much ‘killing’ as ‘culling’.

[Knowledgeminer]

LOL. For the record, because some may be missing this, @Anderson_Geten is systematically flagging all my replies to her as “inappropriate” in an attempt to hide them. They’re of course unflagged shortly afterwards, but she keeps doing it anyway regardless…

[Jonah_Gravenstein]

[Anderson_Geten]

@Knowledgeminer

Whatever the reason, the fact remains that you don’t have to do anything in EvE, and hence pretending otherwise is complete ■■■■■■■■.

And in no game you don’t have to do anything, since you know, it’s a game, you can stop playing whenever you want.
Thank you for your example of a troll.

@Knowledgeminer

Of course, because you say so…

No, because I proved so.
Removing the explanations and claiming I did not provide them is just a troll move.

@Knowledgeminer

What strawman?

The strawman is you claiming that I asked you if you did not like like Eve or wanted to play something else. I don’t care if you like it or not, so no reason for me to ask you that.

@Knowledgeminer

You are the one that made the strawman here by asking “You want to make Eve a PVP centric game?”.

Learn what a strawman is.
Asking question about your goal is not a strawman, it is a question about your goals. Because I don’t assume what you are thinking since I am asking it.

@Knowledgeminer

Sorry, but your inability to explain some ■■■■■■■■ that makes no sense or is plain wrong is your problem, not mine. In no way talking nonsense proves anyone other than yourself wrong.

Nope, your level of stupidity I can’t do anything against.
When I ask a rhetorical question about goals and all you can say is “strawman”, you don’t show any form of intelligence.

So I will only remember that I am reading something written by a kid person and will only skip to the simplest thing to explain him, knowing that making more efforts in an explanation is a waste of time.

[Knowledgeminer]

LOL. Aren’t you supposed to wait at least until the post you flagged gets unflagged before replying to it?

@Anderson_Geten

And in no game you don’t have to do anything, since you know, it’s a game, you can stop playing whenever you want.
Thank you for your example of a troll.

Oh, look, still playing word games and doing selective quoting, conveniently omitting the relevant parts that would make your reply utterly wrong and/or irrelevant, and then pretending it’s me who is trolling, as if it wasn’t possible for anyone reading this to check the facts for themselves…

Me saying you don’t have to do anything was simply a generalisation to make even clearer how ridiculous your claim that you have to farm in EvE is. You’re now conveniently ignoring the context in which I said that, plus how I did specifically address that you don’t have to farm even if you do want to play the game. Why didn’t you quote and completely ignored the following instead?

@Knowledgeminer

If you want to experiment the game, you have to acquire ISK somehow, yes, but that does not mean you have to farm that ISK with PvE even if you don’t pay for it with IRL money either.

You think flagging my replies so they get hidden for a little while allows you to pretend I only said what you want to quote out of context or what?

@Anderson_Geten

No, because I proved so.
Against, thanks for not removing the explanation and telling I did not provide them, it’s just a troll move.

ROFLMAO. You have no clue what “proving” something means…

@Anderson_Geten

The strawman is that you claimed I asked you if you did not like like Eve or wanted to plmay something else. I don’t care if you like it or not.

Except nowhere did I claim anything like that, you trolling liar. It’s not that you don’t care if I like it or not. It’s that you don’t care whether it’s true or not, and keep trolling this thread with your nonsense as if you thought anyone reading this couldn’t check the facts for themselves… And you even have the bollocks to flag my replies to your crap to try to hide them for a while…

@Anderson_Geten

Asking question about your goal is not a strawman, it is a question about your goals.

No, asking a question by itself isn’t a strawman. The strawman you made is asking the question and then selectively quote my reply to that question to put it out of context, so you could try to make it look like I was making a strawman myself, when in fact I was merely answering the inane question that you asked…

@Anderson_Geten

Nope, your level of stupidity I can’t do anything against.
When I ask a rhetorical question about goals and all you can say is “strawman”, you don’t show any form of intelligence.

LOL. What a bunch of nonsense. You ask an inane question, make a strawman out of my reply to that qustion by claiming I’m making a strawman myself, then claim all I can say is “strawman” when it was you who claimed I was doing that…

[Anderson_Geten]

@Knowledgeminer

The strawman you made is asking the question and then selectively quote my reply to that question to put it out of context,

Except YOU literally quoted my question as the strawman - not my answer that I had not made yet.
So now you are changing the meaning of your post after I proved it was wrong, to make it say something even stupider.

You know you are wrong, and are now spamming random BS that makes no sense in order to disguise your defeat under a ton of spam.

So the TL;DR of your posts : you know you are wrong.
CCP changes made the game even more relying on PVE, and providing PVE, than before. Your whole claim about “Eve is PVP centric” that relies on decade-old affirmations is made-up BS in a attempt to derail the discussion because you can’t stand the truth.

[Avaelica_Kuershin]

It’s disturbing how fast the posts are getting flagged.

[Knowledgeminer]

@Anderson_Geten

Except YOU literally quoted my question as the strawman

Ah, right, because I didn’t express that correctly. What I meant is that the question implied a false premise to begin with, namely that EvE isn’t a PvP game already.

So to make this clear, the strawman you made was not in the question itself (as I incorrectly said at first) but rather in the use you made of my reply to it.

@Anderson_Geten

not my answer that I had not made yet.

Oh, sure you had. I didn’t claim you made a strawman after you asked the question, but rather after the use you made of my answer to that question to try to make it look like I was making a strawman myself. You’d be more easily able to see that if you didn’t systematically flag all my replies, but it’s OK, I understand you don’t really want to, LOL.

So with that cleared out, the fact remains that it’s you who made the strawman (not with the question but with the use you made of my reply to that question), and tried to make it look like it was me who was doing it instead…

@Anderson_Geten

So now you are changing the meaning of your post after I proved it was wrong, to make it say something even stupider.

Oh, no, I never do that. I simply made a mistake, which, unlike you, I have no problem admitting. A mistake that makes no difference to anything I said, btw, but which of course you’re gonna try to make look like it does…

@Anderson_Geten

You know you are wrong, and are now spamming random BS that makes no sense in order to disguise your defeat under a ton of spam.

So the TL;DR of your posts : you know you are wrong.

That describes perfectly what you’re doing and always do, yes. You forgot to mention the frivolous flagging of posts too, btw.

[Knowledgeminer]

@Karak_Terrel

I mean if you are not super into endless stupid word games and unjustified arrogance you can easily ignore her. You won’t miss much.

I know, but there is more to it than that. Someone needs to look more closely at this “participant”, and this is a way to help make that happen…

[Anderson_Geten]

@Knowledgeminer

What I meant is that the question implied a false premise to begin with, namely that EvE isn’t a PvP game already.

No it does not. I explained you just before why it is not a pvp-centric game.

@Knowledgeminer

Oh, no, I never do that. I simply made a mistake, which, unlike you, I have no problem admitting. A mistake that makes no difference to anything I said, btw, but which of course you’re gonna try to make look like it does…

“I made a mistake but I still was right”
Nope.
You made a lot of mistakes, and your whole posts are mostly that.

You wrote something stupid. I caught you on that. And you were insulting me because I don’t understand you, while I actually totally understood what you wrote . That’s why I told you “Nope, your level of stupidity I can’t do anything against.”, because what you wrote was stupid . You wrote something stupid but could not accept people to tell you when it is. So no, you have a huge problem admitting your mistakes.

And most of your posts are actually based on the same thing : you use incorrect words, forget the context, go personal aggressions. That’s the definition of a troll.
You kept using “strawman” without any idea of what this means, you keep babbling around in this thread without any constructive post.

Back to topic :

@Anderson_Geten

So the TL;DR of your posts : you know you are wrong.
CCP changes made the game even more relying on PVE, and providing PVE, than before. Your whole claim about “Eve is PVP centric” that relies on decade-old affirmations is made-up BS in a attempt to derail the discussion because you can’t stand the truth.

[Harabec_Ojutai]

I still have trouble understanding why having a difference of opinion leads to so much salt and acrimony. Also, I’ve read the word “straw man” more in the last few months (since joining these forums) than probably the entire rest of my life combined. I’m also not certain it’s always used correctly. Anyway.

Still seems to me there’s a distinction to be drawn between PvP as a core concept that impacts all aspects of the game (i.e., players are in competition with each other) and PvP as ship-to-ship combat. There is no question the game is PvP-centric under the first definition.

I don’t, however, think that EvE is–or should be–entirely combat oriented. I think combat is an integral and essential part of the game, but I don’t think it should be something everyone should have to do just to exist in EvE. My interpretation of what @Anderson_Geten is arguing is that PvP combat wouldn’t exist without the PvE parts of the game. I believe that’s true (if you ignore the fact that you can just buy ISK, which is a whole other issue). If you lose the PvE activities, you lose the player driven economy, which is something that makes EvE special.

Nonetheless, without the looming threat of PvP combat, a lot of the PvE activities in this game would be horribly boring. Hisec is already safe, and if it’s not safe enough, there are ways to further mitigate danger. For example, we talk a lot about Jita, but you know, you can actually sell your goods elsewhere. You could just not make quite as much profit.

Anyway, I’m not sure where I was going with this but to say that (1) yeah, the game is PvP-centric and (2) PvP-centric doesn’t necessarily mean all combat all the time and (3) to remain on topic, Hisec is plenty safe if you take steps to mitigate what little danger remains.

[Anderson_Geten]

BTW You have other people that explain the same thing that you are not able to realize by yourself

EVE Online is not a PVP game - INN

TLDR : you are wrong when claiming Eve is a PVP centric game.

@Harabec_Ojutai

There is no question the game is PvP-centric under the first definition.

There is. In most MMOs, with a trading place run by players, there is competition on the market. In Eve, there is no competition in the abyss at all.
That means, according to that definition, WoW is a PVP-centric game as much as Eve, which it is not. This absurd means the first definition is incorrect.
Eve is a PVP game because you can fight other persons(it does not mean it’s not a PVE game - it just means it has PVP access).

@Harabec_Ojutai

My interpretation of what @Anderson_Geten is arguing is that PvP combat wouldn’t exist without the PvE parts of the game.

I literally wrote it here

@Anderson_Geten

The PVP in eve comes from the PVE .

@Harabec_Ojutai

For example, we talk a lot about Jita, but you know, you can actually sell your goods elsewhere. You could just not make quite as much profit.

Hu… nope. There are things that won’t be purchased out of Jita.
Not that I complain about Jita.

[Abruzzi_Oskold]

@Knowledgeminer

@Karak_Terrel

I mean if you are not super into endless stupid word games and unjustified arrogance you can easily ignore her. You won’t miss much.

I know, but there is more to it than that. Someone needs to look more closely at this “participant”, and this is a way to help make that happen…

Yeah, she flags your posts when are too critical of her.

Edit: Which may be abuse of the flagging system.

[Jonah_Gravenstein]

@Anderson_Geten

BTW You have other people that explain the same thing that you are not able to realize by yourself

The article you linked is what is known as an op-ed, an opinion piece by someone not normally associated with the publication in question; the author notes in the comments that they are writing op-eds for INN while on vacation.

The key word is opinion, thus it is not fact, it is not proof and it is open for others to disagree with.

[Harabec_Ojutai]

I found that article interesting, although I’m not sure why that article should have any greater weight of authority than anyone else’s opinion on the matter. Is the person who wrote it somehow considered an expert on the subject, or is it just one more person expressing their opinion, as we all are?

However, again, I’m trying to draw a distinction between PvP as in-game competition and PvP as referring to specifically combat. The article is only about combat. I agree that a combat-only EvE would be a totally different game, and one I wouldn’t be nearly as interested in playing.

@Anderson_Geten

In most MMOs, with a trading place run by players, there is competition on the market. In Eve, there is no competition in the abyss at all.
That means, according to that definition, WoW is a PVP-centric game as much as Eve, which it is not. This absurd means the first definition is incorrect.

EvE is the first and thus far only MMO I’ve played, so I can’t speak to others. My point is only that in EvE (with maybe the exception of mission-running, not sure), every time I do something it means that someone else doesn’t get to do that thing, at least not right away. Every time I loot a Relic Site, I’ve taken that loot from someone else. In that sense I’m in constant competition with other players, and in that sense PvE is ALSO PvP. Under this more general definition, maybe WoW is PvP. I’m not sure why that’s absurd.

@Anderson_Geten

There are things that won’t be purchased out of Jita.

Maybe don’t produce those things that can only be sold in Jita if you’re not willing to risk the run to Jita? I’m only offering a suggestion. I don’t do industry, so maybe I’m wildly off-base.

@Anderson_Geten

Not that I complain about Jita.

Never said you did. Although I am realizing I need to be more careful when I’m using the word “you” to refer to others generally, and not a specific person. It doesn’t appear to translate well.

[Anderson_Geten]

@Jonah_Gravenstein

The key word is opinion, thus it is not fact, it is not proof and it is open for others to disagree with.

And I did not say it was otherwise. I provided someone else explanation, hoping that the person with a mental deficiency would be able to understand an article made specifically to explain that point when I just spent a few lines telling why I considered it was wrong.

But thank you for pointing the obvious. Now where were you when your friends falsely claimed that “CCP proved that killing people made them stick to the game”, which was a stupid opinion even debunked by CCP ?

[Aiko_Danuja]

New players who are ganked in high sec are the most likely to continue playing.

It’s not hard to understand. If you never get ganked, then the game becomes boring and autistic. Bot aspirants begin playing AFK, and before long they are uninstalling. It is only enjoyable if something happens and you find interesting content and a meaningful challenge which stimulates you to continue playing.

[Anderson_Geten]

@Harabec_Ojutai

I found that article interesting, although I’m not sure why that article should have any greater weight of authority than anyone else’s opinion on the matter.

It does not. It’s just deeper explanations of a point of view for people who are lacking the ability to understand my short post.
I just found this article after that. People are free to disagree as long as it’s a constructive criticism - which many posts on this thread are not.

@Harabec_Ojutai

However, again, I’m trying to draw a distinction between PvP as in-game competition and PvP as referring to specifically combat.

I don’t understand the goal of this.
The article debunks a widespread idea that PVP is more important than PVE in Eve, which is used as a basis of “balance should be made towards PVP being more rewarding and easier than PVE”.

There is no reason to draw a distinction between several usages of the term PVP for arbitrary reason. The debunk is required because people use “PVP” as a wide-meaning term and thus can make it means somethings that are just wrong. eg “PVP centric” while PVE is more required than PVP for Eve to be running.

@Aiko_Danuja

It’s not hard to understand.

no, it’s just wrong.
CCP exactly stated why this statement is wrong.

You keeping saying that the statement I wrote is correct, even though it is wrong, means that your notion of logic is wrong.

[Aiko_Danuja]

@Anderson_Geten

PVE is more required than PVP for Eve to be running.

That’s not true at all. If nobody ever mined, or did any PvE, we could still engage in PvP. Therefore, PvE is entirely unnecessary.