How did Moon Mining come to Highsec?


(zluq zabaa) #1

Title says it all. Since a couple of months highseccers can mine R8 moon minerals - the cheap stuff, that no one else wants to touch because of bad mining ticks.

Does anyone know more about the discussions that led to it? Did the CSM bring it up? Was it on CCPs Agenda for a longer time?

Thanks for any hints.


(mkint) #2

Seemed mostly like a “oh crap, we forgot to pretend to care about anybody who isn’t in the nullbear coalitions our mains are in. Quick, throw something out there that will only take 3 minutes of dev time.” Well, a mix of that and “we need more people to take part so we have better numbers to put on our resumes.”


(Dark Engraver) #3

Ccp gave them a bone to shut them up and it worked


(Erethond) #4

I saw it more as:
CCP: Here’s how moon mining will be redone for low/null: You can shoot big lasers at moons and then mine special asteroids!
Low/Null people: What? We actually have to mine it? That’s awful! T2 production will go way down…
CCP: Hum… if it creates a T2 shortage, that could be a problem… and nobody in null will mine crappy moons.
WH/HS people: What?! Timed mining events we want it too! That’s so cool! And look at those lasers, you did such a great job CCP!
flattery roll succeeds
CCP: Why thank you! Sure, you can have it too. And that solves our shortage problem!
WH: Yes! dependable minerals so we don’t need others as much!
HS: Yes! more valuable things to afk mine! Now CCPlease make people who mine my moon chunks suspects so I can blow them up. It’s my citadel, it’s my stuff, mine! MINE!


(Lady Ayeipsia) #5

Or CCP felt that people not in large nul groups would want to try the mechanic, so opened it up to .5 systems. Also, moon mining is possible in WH space as well.

It could also be to prevent at least some degree of the Technitium cartel scenario that existed in the old moon mining method.


(zluq zabaa) #6

Yeah I was wondering about that. However, R8 minerals are available in total abundance all over the place. No way anyone could monopolize them in a way that it happened to Technetium.

I remember a while before Highsec Moon Mining was introduced, the prices for R8 exploded significantly and wondered if there was simply a shortage of them, because Null/Low would go after the more expensive goo.

And if that was actually the reason to throw the bone out.

Did you mean shortage?


(Rin Vocaloid2) #7

Ah yes, the good old days of OTEC.


(Arthur Aihaken) #8

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(Jenn aSide) #9

Wonderful, in fine general discussion fashion, it didn’t even take 3 posts for this to become high sec whinefest #821,654,391.

I don’t know why its so hard to understand, but everything is a trade off. The trade YOU make for choosing to live in space with automated defenses against unwanted PvP is that you don’t get the best stuff.

If you want better stuff, fly out to the space where your only defenses are your ability to pay attention and the cooperation of other likeminded humans, THEN you get access to the better stuff. But not before…


(Erethond) #10

I believe this is the fundamental reason why there is actual moongoo in HS moons, not just some better normal minerals. Otherwise nobody would have mined that kind of goo since it is not as rare and the shortage (I did mean shortage, indeed! Edited in my original post) would have driven prices of T2 items way higher.

Initially CCP talked about releasing just minerals, then they expanded the selection and even mentioned that it could be revised later. This was implying that more stuff could be added, presumably depending on how the economy reacted to all the moon mining tweaks.


(zluq zabaa) #11

Okay that makes sense. So basically, no insult meant, highsec miners are the monkeys that are willing to mine for low ISK and by doing that make sure Null doesn’t have to actively mine the cheap goo.

T2 prices might have gotten off the books, yeah. Despite that I’m curious why CCP intervened. Why purposefully using god-mode of changing the rules, going against every principle of the sandbox and why not let players figure out how to deal with it?

The shortage of R8 would have sooner or later meant for the moon empires to re-adapt and go for these as well. I’d even say that some of the larger groups would have had the vision to act before things would have really gone south.

I guess that’s really the question that comes out of what you were saying, for me at least. Why does CCP break the sandboxyness of EVE in this case? Why not in others? Maybe I’m missing something.


(Steve Ronuken) #12

WH/Highsec moon mining’s been on the cards since the beginning. Not as a definite, but something which has been asked for, and considered. Both Myself and Noobman were asking for it.

Didn’t originally expect any moon goo, just minerals. (gives people a chance to get used to Moon mining in a ‘safer’ environment.)

The goo, I suspect was to even out supply issues. It was always held in consideration.

As for why they intervened, you can’t really complain about that intervention, when they’d already made such massive changes to the environment.


(CaseyLP) #13

Still better than most highsec ore to be fair though.


(mkint) #14

The thing is, there wouldn’t ever be a shortage. This isn’t about shoring up a supply hole, it was about shifting income. If the common stuff became less common, there wouldn’t be enough of it to supply the build requirements for the rarer stuff, which would then exist in surplus (it’s self balancing.) The prices of the rare stuff would drop down and the whole basket price would balance out, the total basket price being the same. By moving the common stuff to highsec, the common stuff effectively becomes worthless, the basket price stays the same, the rarer stuff goes up in price. Result: Nullbear mega-alliances that the devs all belong to get paid more and their potential competitors get paid less.

This isn’t about maintaining a strong economy. It’s about making sure the devs pre-chosen winners stay on top by decimating their potential competitors before they even have a chance to start.


(zluq zabaa) #15

True, the changes were indeed massive. I’m no expert on the matter, but it seems that the T2 market with all its parts must be one of the largest, if not the largest, after PLEX-related things. Since there is no separate category in the MERs for moon mining there is no data to back me up, but from the sheer size of it I think the changes must have had a strong impact on wealth distribution.

Regarding the goo in Highsec, I didn’t want to complain, but rather understand why this is one of the cases were CCP seems to have pulled the lever and couldn’t wait how players will solve it. As I’ve understood you,
moons themselves were on the table, but R8 goo originally wasn’t.

Also @Steve_Ronuken I really appreciate that you consistently take the time to involve yourself in discussions here and in other places. You’re setting a great example of what a CSM can be. Thanks.


(Xebov) #16

I dont think its about the mechanic or the moon materials. Its about the normal ores. Moon mining alows to get all ores available (except mercoxit). This allows High Sec to maintain full productions without requiring imports from other parts of space. This stabilzes the market because the ore inflow is relatively stable and prevents instabilities caused by low sec or 0.0 large scale wars.


(Xebov) #17

I can think of 2 reasons here:
1.) To get a unified system. This prevents the need of having 2 systems in place (one with moon material, one without) which reduces possible bugs.
2.) Ore distribution. Moon materials are at least ~20% of the moon. Without it you might end up with much higher values on some ores.


(zluq zabaa) #18

There are only the R4 type of Moon-goo-ores in Highsec and none of the other. So it needed a separate set of rules nonetheless. So, I’m not sure reason 1 could be considered.

Number two also does not make that much sense to me. First, R4 Moon Goo Ores consist not only of Moon Goo, but also significant amounts of Trit, Pyerite and Mex, easily competing in m3/yield with some of the high end 0.0 minerals.

Steve said that it might have been to even out supply issues and that makes most sense. For Highsec these Ores are still valuable, while in Null people might not want to touch them due to other, more profitable options. The latter caused the lack of supply before R4 Goo was brought to Highsec.

I think that all makes sense, just it contradicts the notion of player-run-economy a bit and feels a bit like pushing things into a direction. Again, I’m not complaining about it, just trying to understand why an intervention seemed to be necessary specifically with the R4 moons.


(Xebov) #19

No you dont. The rule for moons is one moon ore and 2-3 of the normal ores. The list of available moon ores varies, but the alogrithm to distribute them is the same. Without moon ores you would require 2 different algorithms which means more work to build test and maintain them, which makes sense.

I dont think that it contradicts it, it works more in a way of decoupling things a bit to enable populations in different areas of space to be selfsufficient to some degree.


(Cygnus Parud) #20

It’s really easy, CCP wanted their alts to make more easy afk isk in high sec.