How to provide constructive feedback

[Shipwreck_Jones]

@hellokittyonline

I know it sometimes feels like CCP isn’t listening, and that we’re just screaming into a vacuum. But CCP does indeed listen to player feedback. For example, the Forsaken Fortress and Quantum Core updates were both preceded by a significant amount of player support for the ideas.

Grrrr but I gave CCP all this grate advice & day ignore me & shut down muh threads and they dont really lissen you r just a CCP dev alt cheerleader

Well, that is one perspective. However, I do have experience as a content creator, and I can assure you that a substantial amount of the feedback I get is worthless. “I suspected you were an idiot, but now I know. Unsubbed.” doesn’t tell me how I can improve, nor does it incentivize me to change to get his sub back. Seriously, how is that feedback useful? Why the ■■■■ would I change to try to appease someone who doesn’t even watch my content any more?

Now, I am not saying CCP is an exemplar in listening to player feedback. In fact, they seem to be much more receptive to the feedback of certain play styles, and I frequently feel like they ignore the forums. That being said, CCP does seem to be significantly more responsive to player feedback than many other game devs are. Thus, instead of complaining that the devs aren’t listening, perhaps try improving the quality of the feedback you get.

But they r a businuss and Im the custumor they shuld lissen because I give them money

Honestly, ■■■■ you. I have had to interface with customers in several jobs (both as an employee, and working for myself), so I do have experience dealing with “karens.” And I’m going to tell you right now, there are some people’s business that I do not want. Some customers are completely unreasonable, never happy, and, sometimes, straight up toxic. They can take their money, and shove it up their ass, because I don’t want anything to do with them. So, you might want to ask yourself what kind of customer you are.

Do:

• Put yourself in their shoes- Think about what kind of feedback you would find useful.
• Build a consensus- Why should CCP listen to any idea that can’t survive player scrutiny and garner support from the community?
• Say what your play style is- There are many different activities and play styles in Eve, and the devs do sometimes seem to overlook how changes impact some of the smaller demographics. So, try to offer feedback that actually clues them in who is being affected.
• Be specific- “CCP fails again. This is why Eve is dying,” doesn’t tell CCP how a change is negatively impacting players, nor does it give them any idea on how they should proceed.
• Offer compromises- Asking to straight up roll back changes rarely works (and when it does, it’s for things that didn’t require a lot of dev time to make). However, CCP has demonstrated that they are willing to make compromises (i.e. the zero point mass entangler and the bastion module cycle time change). That being said, you don’t always have to have a solution. Sometimes, just pointing out a problem exists, or that it is a high priority for a lot people is useful information to know.
• Bring your ■■■■■■■ A-game- players can often have conflicting values and priorities, which can lead to them giving conflicting feedback. In such cases, you should think of it as a debate. You should be trying to do what you can to persuade other players and the devs that you should be listened to, and not the other guys (please don’t argue in bad faith).

Don’t:

• Insult them- First of all, would you listen to someone who is insulting you? Second, insults don’t help anything get better; you’re just being a jerk. Besides, even if they did make a mistake, there’s a difference between making a mistake and being stupid.
• Call for anyone to be fired- I used to work for a 19 year old. This guy was the ■■■■, but I’ve still heard a few customers say that he should be fired. And this was in spite of him (a) being the owner, (b) having a work ethic that would put most men to shame, and © his downright impressive technical expertise. So, when I see customers call for people to get fired, I immediately think Karen, and try to get them to go away so I can get back to work. I’ve got more important things to do than to listen to someone b1tch.
• Bust out with the Tin-Foil- For the sake of argument, lets say that CCP didn’t implement resource scarcity in order to sell more plex. Now, imagine you work at CCP. Would you think it’s a good use of your time to read the feedback of people promoting untrue conspiracy theories? And even if you did read it, would you give a lot of weight to the feedback of someone who saying a bunch of stuff that you know for a fact is wrong? Stick with the facts. Don’t sabotage your credibility. Don’t give them a reason to skip over your posts in their search for constructive feedback.

And if you don’t think you should improve the quality of your feedback, that’s fine with me. It just means that my values and priorities are more likely to influence game direction than yours are.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Shipwreck_Jones

I know it sometimes feels like CCP isn’t listening, and that we’re just screaming into a vacuum. But CCP does indeed listen to player feedback.

But they don’t listen? They’ve specifically stated as such in the past, saying something along the lines of not listening to what players say, but looking at what they do (i.e. what they buy).

@Shipwreck_Jones

For example, the Forsaken Fortress and Quantum Core updates were both preceded by a significant amount of player support for the ideas.

Sometimes things will “line up” like that.

Look, don’t get me wrong, I have moderate faith that CCP can develop a decent game, but their practices as a company have been pretty shady throughout the recent years, especially with changes like making unfueled stations drop everything, that were done in a very fly-by-night manner.

[Scoots_Choco]

@Destiny_Corrupted

But they don’t listen?

This, really.

CCP gives zeroshits about the average player. And everyone need to realize this and accept it. Don’t fool yourself. They care more about backend metrics and less about what players think. It’s why so many of CCP’s ““balance passes”” have little to do with what players care about and more to do with just sheer statistics that they collect each month.

[Xanthellus]

I know exactly why CCP doesn’t read their forum. It’s the same reason this forum almost made me not bother starting with EVE. Made a thread about that and got yelled at by the same people, some of which who don’t seem to actively play anymore.

The only way I can deal with this pile of trash forum and “community” (the same small handful of people posting over and over, turning each and every thread into garbage) is by muting a vast number of them and by muting the obvious trash threads.

Without a filter like that there’s no point for people who have “things to do”, like game Devs, to ever visit here. I can’t blame them.

[Zhalyd_Lyehin]

@Xanthellus

Without a filter like that there’s no point for people who have “things to do”, like game Devs, to ever visit here. I can’t blame them.

If they actually did their job and didn’t screw up almost every time they do something – despite people telling them ways to not screw up --, there would be much less negative talk on the forums, on reddit, in the community and aimed towards them.

Of course, you should always try to be constructive and neutral first when you want to present some critical points. But I do not accept the notion that you should remain neutral, polite indefinitely if the targets of your valid criticism keep screwing up over and over and over again and glamoring their screwing up as big achievements.

Besides, if you cannot deal with some toxicity and negative talk when you develop for a game that is centered around massacring, murdering, killing destroying, hunting, griefing, bullying, targeting, stalking, blaming, ridiculing the players, you are not fit for the job.

[Renly_Rohan]

@Shipwreck_Jones

Grrrr but I gave CCP all this grate advice & day ignore me & shut down muh threads and they dont really lissen you r just a CCP dev alt cheerleader

Well, that is one perspective.

I am sorry, but getting harrassed and trolled, having your threads closed for the harassment and trolling of others, and getting shadow banned without consideration, explanation or well, anything decent, IS NOT merely a perspective.

BTW I am Ridley Rohan and not trying to hide who I am. Let me just say it again, SHADOW BAN.

@Shipwreck_Jones

Second, insults don’t help anything get better;

But they sure make YOU feel better when broken people can’t be fixed.

That said, I was thinking to make a post about “how to post constructively” myself, and it was going to be tailored to the Ideas section, the premise and rules of which are being completely ignored and neglected.

But I can’t make threads now and I cannot even post as Ridley Rohan, despite repeated pleas for an explanation of what the hell was going on. But you can’t fix those who are this broken, so why bother?

That said, I salute your decent effort to try anyway. If only more people were so decent, or even making an effort to be. Or even wanted to be.

But EVE wasn’t built on decency I am afraid, common or otherwise.

Enjoy your first like. Can be like a diamond around here, well, unless you post the correct kind of grief, then they rack up.

[0Lona_0ltor]

CCP have an extremely poor record of player engagement so no wonder that player engagement is toxic.

CCP will ban & erase records when anyone hits an issue directly on the head, ie, Kugu. So any quality engagement has to happen outside official channels.

Cronyism in regards to information runs rampant ie, back door discords & even to twitter followers.

Eve pet status is legendary with pet players being gifted PLEX & in game items. CCP’s hypocrisy in regards to botting for isk via RMT botting is infamous.

There is no more poorly moderated “competitive game” than eve online. CCP is not even transparent about moderation & privately gifts players items while charging $ fee’s from others.

IMHO,

CCP has made its bed, there is no point in CCP engaging with a community that it is now farming. Keep the status Quo, any investment in P.R is cash down the drain at this point.

Tl;dr
The ball is firmly in CCP’s park, but why change the habit of a lifetime?

[Xanthellus]

@Zhalyd_Lyehin

If they actually did their job and didn’t screw up almost every time they do something – despite people telling them ways to not screw up --, there would be much less negative talk on the forums, on reddit, in the community and aimed towards them.

Of course, you should always try to be constructive and neutral first when you want to present some critical points.

You’re one of the offenders, normally muted but I was curious who replied. You’re part of the problem so it’s not weird you react as you do. Also, your character has done nothing in EVE, you don’t exist therefore you shouldn’t even be heard.

[Renly_Rohan]

@Xanthellus

You’re one of the offenders

Methinks we are going to need a tribunal thread. We may well see a wave of accusations and denials derail this thread, as well as what is actually needed, which is EVIDENCE.

@Xanthellus

Also, your character has done nothing in EVE, you don’t exist therefore you shouldn’t even be heard.

Leo Szilard was not a doctor, but he was instrumental in curing his own cancer. Tragically sad fact is, everyone knows Einstein and hardly anybody knows Leo.

But that accusation of yours is curious. How do you come to the conclusion a player did nothing? That accusation goes a long way in me doubting the first accusation. Seriously.

[Shipwreck_Jones]

And yet they obviously respond to some feedback (the bastion module cycle time change being the most recent example). Moreover, I’ve also heard someone at CCP (possibly Rise) saying that they know they’ve balanced something right when half the players say that they went too far, and the other half say they didn’t go far enough.

The truth of the matter is that there’s probably a variety of opinions at CCP on the value of player feedback. For example, I heard somewhere (possibly Jestertrek’s AMA after his NDA expired) that the devs have a variety of opinions concerning the CSM, with some devs thinking it’s great, while others don’t really want anything to do with it. So even if there are some devs at CCP who couldn’t give a flying ■■■■ what the players say on forums or reddit, that doesn’t mean that every dev feels the same way.

@Destiny_Corrupted

Sometimes things will “line up” like that.

Also, here’s a recent example of them specifically saying that they responded to player feedback. Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that they’re perfect. However, I don’t know how anyone can dismiss all the evidence of CCP listening to player feedback as it all just being a bunch of coincidences.

[Zhalyd_Lyehin]

@Xanthellus

Also, your character has done nothing in EVE, you don’t exist therefore you shouldn’t even be heard.

This character has not. I have other characters but I don’t use them for the forum anymore. With my other characters, I have been playing EVE for the last 10 years without a single break. I have been following CCP’s developments, development practices and development quality for those 10 years. While I was enthusiastic about their developments in the first 2 years, it soon changed into disbelief over the pandering to the hugest groups because they provided CCP with the material for their deceptive marketing.

If I am part of a problem – which I do not see as a problem at all because almost all of my criticism is based in facts and not fiction, in contrast to CCP’s claims --, so be it.

[Zhalyd_Lyehin]

That picture is a joke. And exactly the reason why people don’t give CCP polite feedback anymore. Paradox claims they gathered lots of feedback over the last weeks, and yet they still introduced this drone change, and yet it was still broken and took away features that were not related to the “issue” they wanted to fix. There is no indication that CCP feels sorry for screwing up, no indication that CCP reconsidered their plan based on the feedback. It is ridiculous to use that post as an example for how CCP listens to players.

This post is, in fact, the perfect example for my claim that CCP glamors up their own failures and sells them as achievements. Thank you for providing that example.

[Shipwreck_Jones]

Well, I seem to recall Ridley getting heated on occasion, but he’s behaving here. So, let’s try to have a civil discussion. I mean, I’ve most certainly gotten myself worked up on occasion, and I haven’t always been the most tactful person myself.

Second, it doesn’t matter what a person does in Eve, that doesn’t mean that they can’t make meaningful contributions to the conversation.

Edit: I don’t know why I thought you had replied to Ridley. Yeah, Zhalyd can sometimes ruffle my feathers as well. So, I guess now I have to put my money where my mouth is. And keep trying to have civil discussions with someone who can sometimes get me worked up.

[Renly_Rohan]

@Zhalyd_Lyehin

There is no indication that CCP feels sorry for screwing up, no indication that CCP reconsidered their plan based on the feedback. It is ridiculous to use that post as an example for how CCP listens to players.

Its probably the best proof there could ever be, since we cannot read minds and know if what was said was true or not. At the very least, player feedback was mentioned as a reason to revert, which suggests they at least know there was significant player feedback negative to the change. Whether that was the actual reason for the change, or, as Destiny_Corrupted says, them seeing what players do, is anyone’s guess. There will never be actual proof of the motive without a crystal ball.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Shipwreck_Jones

Also, here’s a recent example of them specifically saying that they responded to player feedback. Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that they’re perfect. However, I don’t know how anyone can dismiss all the evidence of CCP listening to player feedback as it all just being a bunch of coincidences.

Here’s why I’m a cynic: they’re saying.

If they didn’t respond to at least some feedback, they probably wouldn’t have a product (or at least any customers). But there’s a difference between active engagement with the community, and doing damage control. If they actively engaged, and didn’t just wait for a Reddit thread to blow up before placating their players, we’d see them act differently. Now, mind you, we might not necessarily see them make different changes to the game than they do, but we’d at least see more of them around, talking to us, explaining their viewpoints, and so on.

Everything that CCP does is structured in a way to appear vague now. Remember the old days, when CCP made posts talking about the “harsh universe” and such? We don’t get any of that anymore. It’s even missing from the marketing materials now, which are also extremely vague about EVE’s features. And this vagueness is leading people to get into arguments with each other, which inevitably result in closed threads, which in turn feels like CCP is suppressing the community. Everything that CCP has recently done feels like they’re saying “shh, don’t worry about it, just be quiet and log in and buy some PLEX and skins.” That kind of treatment doesn’t feel like it’s coming from a company that considers feedback, even if they say they do.

[Zhalyd_Lyehin]

If you want to put it like that, be my guest. However, I think that they could have prevented a lot of negative sentiments in this particular instance if they had actually paid attention to the feedback from the start (after all, they talk about weeks of feedback just a few days after release) and delivered this feature without glaring bugs as these bugs or unintended feature removal (drone assist, drones not even activating on targets you shoot with guns) must have been brought to their attention in those “weeks of receiving feedback”.

It may not seem like it (I am fully aware of how I usually act) but my aim is that CCP delivers good content that is not plagued by issues. That’s all I want to see.

[Renly_Rohan]

@Shipwreck_Jones

I mean, I’ve most certainly gotten myself worked up on occasion

Careful now. I have a feeling you did NOT do it to “yourself”.

@Shipwreck_Jones

Well, I seem to recall Ridley getting heated on occasion

I won’t deny it. But its far from my preferred mode.

Some people needed banned for sure. I was not one of them for defending myself from harassment from what seem to be teacher’s pets. Honestly, this forum has no hope in that climate. I give up, as there is no will to fix it, which seems pretty clear to me right now.

But that does not mean I won’t reach out to others who still want this forum to be a place of worth.

[Xanthellus]

@Shipwreck_Jones

keep trying to have civil discussions with someone who can sometimes get me worked up

Why? They provide nothing insightful, positive or constructive. Why waste your time on people who can’t seem to behave themselves and really only just put out raging negativity? There’s nothing to gain, one of the best things of the internet is being able to remove the folks who just spread blind rage, would you actually mingle and interact with someone who acts like that IRL?

Not telling you what to do obviously, everyone makes their own choices. My choice is not to have my time wasted by people who choose to add nothing but vitriol. It seems CCP is doing the same so if you want CCP to interact more with us on the official forum then we should probably strive to not feed&interact with the ones who turn threads into a piling heap of ■■■■.

[Renly_Rohan]

@Xanthellus

My choice is not to have my time wasted by people who choose to add nothing but vitriol.

I don’t think you understand what happens. They totally misrepresent what you say, and that gets others to misunderstand what you said. Its not a choice. You either try to repair the damage by replying or you just watch your thoughts and ideas die and let people believe you are as crazy as the false ideas they said are yours. They destroy your threads and sabotage your ideas and ruin your reputation. And I imagine this is enjoyed by those who have the power to fix it, since they don’t.

That said, there are people here worth talking to. And people are right to want to engage in conversation with them, even if its just for the pleasure of doing so and not expecting CCP to listen.

[Cypherous]

@Destiny_Corrupted

But they don’t listen? They’ve specifically stated as such in the past, saying something along the lines of not listening to what players say, but looking at what they do (i.e. what they buy).

See people confuse listening to vocal minority rants and listening to the data

They are listening to what players are actually doing ingame and basing changes on that, EVERY public communications outlet, here or reddit, always consists of a vocal minority and devs shouldn’t always jump to listen to what is posted here unless it gets massive traction or is related to a bug

A lot of players on the forums whine about issues they don’t understand or demand changes that would cause issues they aren’t able to see

The thing is people seem to expect CCP to post a response to every single thread or balance request, which won’t happen, mainly because it would be a terrible idea, the second a blue response to something is made that answer is taken as a guarantee of said change being added or the issue being addressed a specific way, then when the actual fix arrives and doesn’t match exactly what the dev posted they get annoyed

There isn’t a way for CCP, and other developers, to “win” so most just don’t comment because the fallout from players incorrectly expecting something is far worse than just not saying anything, and that is before we get to the part about not being able to comment on certain things or things where planned changes are already in motion, and lets not forget the joys of the market exploding whenever a change is announced too far ahead of time