Well it says that advertising is against the ToS. So I prefer not. And especially since you appear to be the alt of Scoots Choco who acted quite rudely above… I would not see that you seek this information from me with any good intention.
1 Like
Wow, I just went into your profile and checked your activity on the forum. You have been insulting people on the forums daily for like a year… how are you not banned?
1 Like
You guys are gunna laugh at me but there is a bit of human psychology here that is being missed on both sides.
First, in nature altruism is the exception not the rule. Approaching this subject as if the vets owe the new players something wont work. Neither will expecting vets to give newbs value that they dont have. Its true newbs are a risky prospect. They simply dont have the skills (personally or in game) to engage in the activities that vets do like high end pvp, pve, mining etc.
On the flip side vets DO need newbs for one very important thing. Content. Eve is a game where the lions share of content is made by players and most npc interactions are just made to fund or fuel the player interaction. Every new player adds something to this system no matter how small.
Progression is an issue here. Both in how time consuming it can be, how highly the new player values it and ironically how little it actually matters. Most games nowadays have a very linear progression. You start out like total dog crap and everything you gain from there makes you objectively better. Eve isnt like that but it leads new players to believe they have months of skill grind alone before they can even begin to play the game let alone manage to fund anything enjoyable. The truth that a lot of new players dont realize though is there is an immense amount of stuff you can do with tier 1 ships. You dont have to be the best to enjoy the game in most cases you just have to be good enough while you work to get better.
CCP should make that undeniably clear at the very start through guides. Aside from the basics of how to fly your ship that should be the very first thing a new player sees.
New players dont really know what they wanna do or how to get there. They are naturally risk averse. So a lot of them flock to mind numbing drudgery like mining pr missions instead of seeing that as a means to an end. I think a good fix to help new players through that confusing start would be to really flesh out the npc corps so that they can provide guidance, rewards and content for new players so they can enjoy getting through that early stage and graduate to player corps.
Have npc corps dedicated to every facet of the game even risky ones like low and nullsec exploration and pvp. Give ppl a clear focus and in the riskier cases some incentives to soften the blows of losses. Make rankings for them and give rewards for that. Ppl love to compete.
Make a gladiator corp with open (no gate they are just death traps in some cases) sites that allow only solo, t1 fitted, t1 ships through so that new players can get some action and learn.
Its not vets jobs to baby sit newbs but the content available to noobs is sorely lacking and CCP would benefit from making things clear right at the start.
I havent played in a while but probably the biggest thing id love to have is a place where i can fit garbo ships and spar with a buncha different people to get practice without having to join a corp (life makes that difficult)
1 Like
With most games, for the first 6 months - 2 years (depending how hard you play), only the really ‘obvious’ flaws are noticeable. Such as in your case, the way EVE doesn’t really do much to foster player interaction.
It takes some time before other gameplay issues become a major factor, and of course disappointment with the ‘developer’ typically only happens after you’ve watched them in action over a longer period of time. To put CCP in context though, if you read the forums of most game developers, even the big ones, you’ll see a lot of negativity from many of the longer term players. Complaints about the developer don’t mean the game is bad, it simply means their paying customers expect them to do better. Game design is as much art as science, more really, and so it’s not something you can pull out of a hat.
As for the ‘welcoming newcomers to social EVE’ part, I think your key phrase is right here:
When you want to adjust the way the game works, you structure the game mechanics so that it encourages and rewards the behaviour that you want to foster. Currently, EVE rewards grinding and farming, maximum efficiency play, high end play (nullsec farming), multiboxing, botting, market manipulation, and taking advantage of and exploiting everyone else you possibly can in every way you can get away with.
Not hard to see that this design promotes the retention of maximum efficiency, pay to win, exploitive and abusive and just ridiculously stubborn players, while weeding out all the casuals, play for fun, “I’m here to explore” and “I’d like to try space combat” types - because in general they get the short end of the stick in most game interactions.
It’s best not to favor certain corps, or guide new players into specific newbie corps, but simply to make it so that both new players and long-term players benefit from being in a corp, and corps benefit from having more, and more active/successful, players. In that case it’s to everyone’s benefit to recruit to a corp, join a corp, and work to make the members of your corp more successful - and the desired behaviour will naturally follow.
1 Like
Well, I can just speak for myself personally. Having more NPC missions and stuff to do would not have kept me in the game. Rather the opposite, I would be disappointed that EVE was just one of those games where you need to complete a lot of NPC “quests”. I would have run back to my other games and my old friends even faster. It was the prospect of not being a NPC solo experience … a true sandbox … that let me to EVE. But I do agree that it is a solution, and a solution that many MMORPG uses … I just think its an inferior one to the solution which the game I come from employs. In that game there is Zero solo NPC game play what so ever. You need a team from day one, and they need you as well … this is the kind of solution I wished to hint at could had been the solution for EVE as well, instead of adding more solo NPC stuff.
For me its like a cooperation vs competition thing. Its too easy to start feeling like everyone is holding a cookie in one hand and a knife behind their back prolly because half the time they are.
I think OP just wants that sense of community without playing the cookie or knife game. I love cooperation but id hate to be forced into a corp. Should just make it easier for ppl with similar in game interests to get together, talk, group up etc without sharing a corp or alliance. Even if its just chat channels or a temporary agreement function (sorta like trade but instead of agreeing to give each other crap it prevents ppl from shooting each other) Just simple crap that helps ppl socialize and gives an option of transparency for groups outside your corp.
I almost think the emphasis just a little too far in that direction cuz its like the community is fractured into hermetically sealed bubbles.
1 Like
You are assuming i mean only npc stuff. Its hard to describe but what i really meant was take the stuff we already have and organize it better. Like make a mining npc corp that lets miners group up, gain incentives for taking risk (ie make x commission for mining x bistot). Like a hi sec sparring zone for noobs to fight etc.
Make all the elements if the game more accessible to new players so that dont have that big wall right in the beginning where they have nothing and no idea of what to do. Ofc its a sandbox and i dont want to water that down at all but the initial learning curve can definitely be softened to hill rather than cliff.
edit-- when i say npc corp i mean in game corps that arent player owned like the ones for FW. I really meant for it to be a place to focus noobs together for diff areas of the game and maybe get a modified LP system. That would fix the issues of exploiting new players too.
1 Like
Why not just have all new players start as the exact same race and then let their activities in the game somehow morph them into a specific race over time?
1 Like
You may find the forums a bit frustrating to put forward good and new ideas, because there are a number of people who’ve been around a long time and their only real entertainment these days is to jump on every post they can and say “You’re stupid and here’s why I’m smarter than you” rather than try to work with an idea to develop it further. They’re not looking for improvement to the game, they’re just looking for a little ego-inflating one-upmanship.
To help refine your idea, it’s important to fine tune what you are rewarding and how it’s rewarded. For instance, reward player count and people will just bloat corps with every deadbeat and alt they can, and leave them out to hang. Reward high performance and corps will only recruit high performers. At least if you reward ‘Omega membership’ it might help corps try to get members to sub, but it would likely just result in corps headhunting Omegas and ignoring Alphas.
If you worked out a mechanic that combined “stage of the game the corp member is at” with “average performance at that level”, you would have a reason for corps to recruit anyone and make sure they are performing above average for their age/SP/resources. Or you could work out some “corp member improvement over time” mechanic, such that the growth of each member triggers rewards. Then new players would be more desirable than old players, and training them up quickly would be the most rewarding path.
2 Likes
Yes. Basically, if I should try to be more concrete (apologies if you find my argument vague), in EVE (compared to where I come from) there is a lot more of “I need them (a corp)” for new players and very little “We need him/her (the newbee)” for the corp. As others have pointed out a new player is a lot of work for the corp to train, they present the risk of being spies etc., and the odds that the investment will yield a positive retun is low. Hence most corp shy away. This is totally understandable.
So then let me be concrete what is different in that other game I got experience with. In that game it is also true that a new player is a lot of work for the organisation to train, they present the risk of being spies etc. In fact, a spy there could do insane damage to the organisation as well. The difference being is that the daily work done by each player in the organisation is contributing to the organisations overall ability to fight its rivals. In EVE you may think of this as if every member of the corp contributed to a player owned structure’s or some sort of mother-ship’s defensive or offensive strength by the aggregated activity of all its corp members… this is the best analogy between the games I can put into words. Hence, an elitist org who only take in the very best and “safest” recruits will eventually have a hard time keeping up with organisations that see the stream of new players a potential gold rush and a commodity to process. Basically, its a bit more of “We need him/her (the newbee), and we need to to get motivated and useful asap!” for the organisation.
From my own experience that imminently creates a bond between the newcomer and the org that he first was picked up by. You feel a sense of both belonging and loyalty. And I do feel this is possible in EVE as well, cause this is how I now feel to my EVE corp who picked my up even before logging in to my account. Maybe even more so since they are not gaining themselves in the way orgs do when picking up newcomers in my old game.
I hope I was able to be more concrete now.
Part is the problem as has been possibly mentioned is that you can’t just drop random new people in player corps.
Even corps that don’t care about spies still would want to do some kind of ‘interview’ with a new member to see if they are a good fit for the culture of the corp, like to do the activities the corp does, and has similar goals to the corp. By filtering recruits the corp not only helps themselves but they also help the new member have a good time, do what they are interested in and form bonds with like minded people. A corp that doesn’t bother to try and get like minded people together is going to be no better than the NPC corp.
It’s a ‘marriage’. What happens when you have an arranged marriage and no love? So probably they could make it easier to understand how to find other corps to talk with and apply to but you can’t force corps to take random players nor do you want to.
When we recruit new members we make sure they understand what we do and what we don’t do. It’s better to not recruit a member than to have them struggle or be bored because we don’t provide some content they want/need. We do recruit new to the game players but they need to be a good fit for our culture/personality, not just random.
Kezrai Charzai you are right. I should have come forward with an example of such system in EVE … a clear one before posting.
I like this idea better than the way it has been. It was stupid to pick your race 12 years ago and it is just as stupid to pick your race as a new player today. When i created this character i at least had a sense of the races but for a new player it is allot i think . I wonder how many “NEW” players remake thier characters after the first couple months or so. When i first started out i redid characters once i found out that attributes were associated with your race hence i have a whole family of Caldari Civire Mercs .
I thought of this two maybe place people into the different factions to start cause new players do not really travel that far outside their initial areas for awhile.
Another thought would be to have a couple chat channels that you automatically start with that might help although i haven’t finished the tutorial yet so i don’t know where they leave you off at.
When i started there was no real tutorial that worked well but there were more people centered around High sec and allot easier to chat in local in different systems and ask questions than it is now it.
Actually I am myself sort of a damn over-achiever that grinds my *** off. That was what I hoped EVE have to offer when I came here. But I just think its way more enjoyable to do it in the company of team mates. It kind of feel so “unimportant” to get on top of the world if you stand there without buddies to share it with in the end. And it was that feeling of seeing no end in sight of the solitude in EVE that made me quit the first time.
Essentially What I was missing was the feeling of being able to log into the game, go hard core mode, and then go back to my team and show to them I cared for our common progression.
Actually, in the game I come from the only one that potentially can hold the knife behind their back is the recruit as the he could leak Intel to the enemy or sabotage. Should the organisation turn out to be abusive or predatory to the recruit he can then always seek out a better org, which by the design are always looking for serious and mature members to help them grow in strength. Also, in that game it does not feel like you are forced into a corp, you are essentially taking cover from your enemy. No one forces you to bond together, but if you don’t you get eaten up within a few weeks by your neighbor who see that you have no one to come to your aid. So it’s kind of a bond together or get crushed situation going on.
Ye I have figured EVE kind of requires that of a Corp as of current to minimize the problems and optimism the odds of the hazzel of taking in a new guy worth it. It is kind of the ‘dominant strategy’ and hence employed by most corps. Let’s the NPC missions and a few weeks or months in a newbee friendly corp teach the newcomer what he like to do … and after that maybe take consider him for recruitment. What I am suggesting would for sure mean that corps who want to maximize their power needed to be much more aggressive in their recruitment, and thus it would be likely that a smaller proportion of new recruits in the end actually would like the roles the crop offers them to play. Yet, I still think this to be a NET-benefit for everyone. For the recruit it’s a net benefit as he directly come in contact with people who have played EVE for a long time. Furthermore he would not pick a corp blindly, he would pick something that was in line what he thought he wanted to do (say Industry), and something that the Corp advertise as their thing (say Industry and Hauling). Still, if he then realize that he want to go off doing exploration, at least he he a new addition to the EVE universe, with a few friends and the knowledge that he does not want to do Industry.
Good notions. There are a number of problems with the account creation/startup process that don’t encourage retention in EVE. Choosing a faction rather than a ‘career’, for instance, when the faction is almost irrelevant and the career is what you will actually be doing.
The suggestion of NPC corps that work as focus/funnels for certain careers is a good one. That way miners would be chatting with miners, PvPers with PvPers, and more advanced players could join in to provide advice and also see who’s actually learning and growing to recruit into their own corps.
Getting like-minded players communicating with each other and working together would be an excellent first step in growing community. And in the spirit of EVE, it could also be infiltrated and used as ‘intel’ by people with nefarious intent. So win-win all around!
1 Like
I also want to share my EvE story. In 3 days my character will become 9 years old. I have only 42kk SP so you can calculate actual ‘age’ of my character. I remember how I spent my entire trial learnig Learning Skills unable do finish starter storyline. I remember how I was the first time pod-killed in low-sec (it was autopilot). I remember how my fellow Gallente Militia pilots destroyed my Dominix while I was doing a FW mission in Caldari Space (I thought that fellow militia pilots would be friendly and didn’t retreat to a safe spot when I noticed them on my scanner).
I always was a Gallente ‘nationalist’. Flew only Gallente ships. Trained only Gallente-related skills (before I planned my training based on certificates system and now on mastery system). Served only under Gallente Militia (since I first time enrolled into militia) etc.
It is at least 1 year 6 month and 30 days since I last time logged into the game. I always want to return to EvE. But every time I face the same question: “What I will do?”. Ofc, I will join FW again. Maybe even return to my previous corp, Aideron Robotics. But then what? It is not lack of corp activities that drove me out of EvE last time (and all times before that). I’m actually a big fan of flying of whatever they tell my to fly (which is problem cause usually it is shield fitted Caldari or Minmatar ships) and do whatever they tell me to do. Every time I drop EvE because of lack of stable source of IKS income. I don’t mind to pay for a game with my credit card, but I still need to cover my expenses. And there are a lot of expenses since I’m ■■■■ at PvP.
Everyone knows that making ISK in a FW is easy, though I don’t know the current situation on a FW LP market. I was always eager to join any Corp/Alliance/FW activity (but the last time i played EvE we were claiming null-sec in the name of Gallente Federation, which was disappointing). But my biggest problem is whenever I need to earn ISK I’m always alone. And farming ISK alone (with options avaliable to me) is the most boring and tedious thing one can do. I have only 1kkk ISK left and it is discourage me from resubbing again.
Sorry for my poor English and I’m very sorry for mine whine.
1 Like
In terms of the OP, you seem to have picked a pretty damn good corp to operate in, in fact one of the best to get access to high level PvE and who have a good all round attitude to Eve.
Yes! I’m so lucky and happy for that. It’s like I play two different games compared to the first time I did play EVE. This is why I wanted to share this … maybe EVE in general can be more like this for other newcomers.
2 Likes
Hehe, I have the opposite problem really. I have the ISK income now, but don’t know what to spend it on. But why don’t do as I did, join a corp before returning … and let the excitement of making new friends and learning a new way drive you. Maybe join a Corp that is focused on something else, so you can get the experience you need to get that stable ISK income you need.
Well i played on and off since about 2011. First time i had no idea what to do. I had no money and idea how to get anywhere without getting obliterated. Lost some silly ships in silly places because i fell into the typical trap in assuming i needed bling to accomplish anything rather than having maxed skills on smaller ships.
Then i joined a null sec pvp corp in syndicate. We lived near goons and had a few really good tumbles with them and i learned a hell of a lot about fitting ships and getting the most done with the least amount of isk.
We would take our loot and farm null sec rats or anomalies for our money. Was kinda funny cuz our corp lead loved to group to run sanctums which was fun but some days i just wanted to be lazy and chill so id take one of my cruisers out and just listen to music and belt farm. He scoffed at me saying id never make money. That was until he had to haul my unholy pile of random garbage to jita in a jump freighter. Maybe 8 hours of crap farming spread over several days netted me 110 mil not counting bounties (when that was still a lot. Could buy 2 or 3 t2 fit cruisers and maybe a few t1 frigs for solo pvp)
Most of the time belting and chilling and talking to my corp mates was relaxing and uneventful but you couldnt get complacent or goons would eat your tengu or legion.
Last time i dropped eve was because life happened. Nowadays im corpless cuz life still happens and my internet is horrible but i live in gallente space right at the border of high, low and null withing 3 jumps so i have a relatively safe place to dump my crap quickly and easy access to ratting and pvp.
Triglavian shenanigans is one of my fav past times. Im a shameless wreck thief with my little 12 mil crap catcher tristan. The guy in the battleship should learn to share right?