I think entropic disintegrators are too weak!

[elitatwo]

Now that we have those totally weak and useless triglavian ships, it is time to give them a balance overhaul.

Entropic disintegrators are way too weak and need a buff! They hardly do any kind of damage (to titans…).

How about a new set of implants that could increase the damage multiplier per cycle of said disintegrators and help with the totally useless damage output of disintegrators.

What do you guys think? Would a new implant set for entropic disintegrators be okay for all those poor performing triglavian ships?

[Sakura_Hoshizora]

You should take a look at SiSi…

[BalticBeast14]

Tell it to all the capital ships and fighters which were wrecked by the disintegrators. Namely by Kikis and Drekavacs. In contrary, I expect that CCP will nerf them in the future somehow, especially Kiki. It was nerfed once after release already.

[Val_en_Thielles]

not weaker than this bait

[Gustav_Mannfred]

Look at Sisi, a new Implant set that increases disintegrator max damage by 80% and also reduces its ramp from like 5% to 4% per cycle.

I agree that some of the Trig ships are useless, like the Damavik. And the Kikimora is OP as it does almost the same dps as a Vedmak at much bigger range(even more range than Ikitursa or Drekavac). All the Other ships(Nergal, Ikitursa, Vedmak and Leshak) are fine as they are.

[Sebat_Hadah]

damn…

[dewk]

You have your turret core skills to a good level.

Basically Disintegrators are special, you need to pick you targets carefully. Unlike other turrets that allow you to change targets as you see the threat. Trig Disintegrators requires you to see the threats beforehand.

Key reason is cycle time of turret per fire, and with each cycle its damage increases. But if you change target or target leaves turret optimal range the turret resets.

So key thing is to have good levels in ROF, Optimal, Acc range and Tracking turret core skills, and modules that helps with these key areas.

One problem i see is players focusing on one area, DPS, this isn’t the issue, its maintaining turret lock on target and constant hits. Yes cycle time is important in increasing DPS, but if you can get concrete hits on your target you can do massive damage without needing the huge DPS.

A good Trig fit, with set of skills with well thought out plan of attack you can beat any ship of equal class and size in a one on one fight. The keg is knowing your ships limitations and what your bonuses are.

Disintegrators have the best tracking of all turrets, so use that to your advantage.
They have no fall range, so forget you knowledge of turret ranges, think of them as missile launchers, if target on the edge of you optimal get them back to within 2/3 your optimal range, and try to maintain that or closer.
Now this is a HUGE thing, NEVER CHANGE AMMO ONCE TURRET STARTED! The reason is even if a target gets in nice and close, you DON’T change Meson for ether of the other two. Reason is the turret has already spun-up and doing higher damage than the others will do for a while. REMEMBER AMMO CHANGE, LIKE TARGET CHANGE AND TURRET TARGET LOOSE, ALL RESET TURRET DPS TO BASE,
You should only change ammo if you change target, run out of ammo and no other time.

Ive seen players change targets in middle of taking down a target, because they had another threat, or change from long range ammo to high DPS ammo on the same target, while the turret is almost to full powerup (much higher dps than DPS ammos start damage).

As you can tell these turrets can be very deadly if use correctly. Ive made mistakes that i listed above, and had chat after one fight with a ganker that said they were surprised they won, and only because i stuffed up by changing targets, where the current target would have died due to the DPS amping, and that would have reduced their combine damage.

So don’t think of these as normal turrets. And learn their limitations and play within those. Do 't focus solely on DPS, look at the other limitations.

[Dragos_Highwind]

i will agree with you, however the problem stems from their core design goal. These weapons were designed for bashing and capital grinding. They are very solid for their intended purpose, past that they are indeed lackluster. A preferred and easy solution would be a rig that decreases the Maximum Damage Multiplier by 30%, but increase the Damage Bonus Per Cycle by 50%.

Using a Vedmak with L5 skills, Heavy Entropic II, and 2 radsinks as an example.

[Scoots_Choco]

@Dragos_Highwind

A preferred and easy solution would be a rig that decreases the Maximum Damage Multiplier by 30%, but increase the Damage Bonus Per Cycle by 50%.

That’ll just defeat the whole point of the charge up mechanic…

It’s fine as it is right now.

If you guys want guns that do a lot of damage very quickly, just use blasters. Learn to adapt to different weapon styles instead of whining about one weapon platform isn’t the same as another platform.

[Dragos_Highwind]

How? There is still a charge up mechanic, but the timeline is better normalized for anything that doesn’t have structure/capital level EHP. The ability to chew on hard targets is the Pre-Cursor niche, however it’s implementation is at a timescale that isn’t feasible for most content.

[dewk]

Well i’ve been using these turrets from their release, never had any issues against PVE or PVP. As noted above, i did lvl3 and currently lvl4 blitz missions solo in Trig ships, have no issues they do better than the old Amarr ships i used before.

As i noted above you need to learn how to use them. Figure out the best tactics for their use, as they aren’t solely Cap or structure bashers.

Select the right version of turret for your gameplay. Most seem to focus on T2 ammo and high damage, that’s only good if both you and your target are still, as the T2 ammo have massive tracking drop, for the damage bonus. Which in turn reduces damage when attacking moving targets.

Seem many forget how turrets in general work, they aren’t 100% hitters, but they can get above 100% damage with solid hits. So too identical turrets using same ammo, but one has higher tracking and the other higher ROF, one will fire more often, and the other will hit better more often.

Look if you want faster amping of damage use the Trig Assault ships, both have a bonus per lvl in the specific area, but you still need to land the hits.

[dewk]

Try the T2 version, the HAC and you’ll see a huge difference. I’ve taken on T3 cruisers with one, and the T3 struggled to survive against the medium turret.

Though i do have all trig turrets at lvl4 specialization and HAC at the same level.

As i noted above even the little Nergel can be deadly, ive used in abyssal fleets and its saved fleet m8s many times, not just with logi, but in taking out hard targets fast.

But i can never say it enough times learn how to use the Trig stuff, learn the best tactics and fits for your playstyle. Most current fits are bashing fits, not combat fits. I would suggest jumping on the test server and play around with fits till you find the one for you.

[Dragos_Highwind]

Trig T2 ships do not have any faster ramping of damage, they simply have a higher ceiling. A Vedmak and a Ikitursa do the exact same amount of damage for the first 150% bonus (about 2 minutes). Which basically means they do the same damage to most everything.

I can’t speak to Blitz missions, but that falls under the same solo target vs solo target scenario. If it has a high amount of EHP that needs the be chewed on that’s what they are made for. For the other 99% of content where you are switching targets or targets are dieing before 1 minute of shooting them constantly they are subpar.

A ikitursa is a lot of fun, mainly because it’s beautiful and the psychology of a 300% bonus is huge. In a solo fight if you can stay alive on a target for 3-4 minutes you will win. However in any fight you can’t stay on a single target for 2+ minutes it’s a better tanked 420m hull vedmak. Take one out on a fleet that isn’t hunting capitals and you will likely be primaried into the ground long before seeing your ramp. The perceived DPS threat and almost certain high isk value kill makes you a large target.

Note: I’ve flow all the trig ships extensively and am well aware of their capabilities.

[dewk]

I’ve never had any issues with the Disintegrators personally.

Personally find them better than most other turrets other than range and alpha strike.

Personal i get the following;
Leshak with Veles disintegrator, 1x t2 Abyssal rad sink (1.128× {reduced damage mult} +7.2% ROF) and 2× Shadow tracking;

With range scripts (DPS is start damage):
Meson DPS 404.9 (996HP th, 627HP Emex) out to 86.51km, tracking 6.8125
Mystic DPS 510.7 (1365HP th, 683HP ex) out to 72.09km, tracking 3.40625
Tetryon DPS 570.6 (1586HP th, 701HP ex) out to 33.64km, tracking 6.8125
Occult DPS 708.6 (1660HP th, 1181HP ex) out to 28.84km, tracking 5.1094

With tracking scripts (damages are the same):
Meson out to 65.47km, tracking 11.9945
Mystic out to 54.56km, tracking 5.997
Tetryon out to 25.46km, tracking 11.994
Occult out to 21.83km, tracking 8.9958

These setup has an ROF of 4.01sec with my skills*(no implants)*, simular setup without Rad sink has ROF 4.32sec

Now compare an Apoc with Pulse Lasers and 1× sink and the same tracking setup:
Mega Pulse Laser II with multifreq, DPS 57.1 (169HP em, 121HP th) tracking 10.213, ROF 5.07secs
Dark Blood Dual Heavy Pulse Laser with multifreq, DPS 48.5 (111HP em, 79HP th) tracking 11.347, ROF 3.91sec

As you can see the dis ROF is average against the T2 pulse and the best Tracking Faction laser turret, its tracking is better than the Pulse lasers. Sure the Other turrets can get a good alpha strike, but per hit the disintegrators do more damage, it takes almost 10× Dark Blood pulse laser with multifreq to bet a Veles using meson ammo (the lowest damage ammo)

I don’t think people have looked at this correctly. Remember the above dis damage is only the first cycle, it increases at a minimum of +5% (depending on ship bonuses), so after the first hit they already surpass the pulse lasers, after the 3rd they surpass beam lasers.

The big advantage other turrets have is range, with falloff range they surpass the best disintegrator range by ×2 at least. Add to that a large option of ammo types and effects.

Below is example of the other ships with faction turret, only ROF and tracking listed. Damages are scale version of the large.

Drekavac with Veles Dis and not sinks, 3.96sec ROF.
Ikitursa with Veles Dis and 1× T2 sink, 3.72sec ROF.
Above without sink, 3.96sec (lvl4 HAC skill).
Kikimora with Veles Dis and no sinks, 2.52sec ROF
Above with T2 sink, 2.37sec.
Nergel with Veles and no sink, same as kiki, 2.52sec ROF (lvl4 Assault Frig skill) with t2 sink same as kiki.

No sure what your thoughts are @Dragos_Highwind, but to me looks like those complaining about DPS being low haven’t got the skills or the fit to use these effectively.

[Dragos_Highwind]

Your data is extremely skewed. You’re basing your Leshak DPS based off a Faction turret + 2 Abyss radiation sinks. You can’t even compare that to a Faction Pulse + 2 Heatsinks.

Normalized data:
L5 skills Leshak Super Entrop II w/ 2 Radsink II (~590m isk)
Meson DPS 477 out to 63.5km, tracking 6.81
Mystic DPS 602 out to 52.9km, tracking 3.41
Tetryon DPS 673 out to 24.7km, tracking 6.81
Occult DPS 835 out to 21.1km, tracking 5.11
ROF 3.85

L5 skills Abbadon Mega Pulse x7 w/ 2 heatsink II & Burst Aerator II rig (~188m Isk)
Scorch DPS 700 out to 44.1+12.5km, tracking 3.16
Conflagration DPS 980 out to 15.8+ 12.5km, tracking 5.11
ROF 4.12, Can split between 7 targets

The Abbadon is a closer comparison as the Apoc receives no bonus to damage. The damage is balanced around the ability to have rigs. To keep things fair I used only the one rig.

The Leshak with T2 ammo must cycle on it’s target for 30 seconds to exceed the Abbadon with T2 ammo.

The damage only increases 5% per cycle always as the damage bonus is calculated off the base damage which already includes all multipliers from skills, modules, etc. The precursors do punish lower skills more due to the multiplier and top end damage. With only Battleship 4 and Specialization 4 of the respective skills the Abbadon drops by 70 dps while the Leshak drops 97 DPS and 240 DPS at full spool. This difference changes the spool up time needs on the target by an additional 12 seconds to make up the gap and exceed the average DPS.

[dewk]

Your data is extremely skewed. You’re basing your Leshak DPS based off a Faction turret + 2 Abyss radiation sinks. You can’t even compare that to a Faction Pulse + 2 Heatsinks.

this is incorrect!

it was the following setup.

Leshak with Veles disintegrator, 1x t2 Abyssal rad sink (1.128× {reduced damage mult} +7.2% ROF) and 2× Shadow tracking ;

I have to agree about the Apoc vs Abbadon in regards to the damage bonuses.

And I did note that the Radsink damage mod bonus was below the standard T2 version, it only had a bonus to ROF. The information on the Leshak was a direct pull of the weapon specs of the fit.
So the ranges, damage and tracking are true data.

The poor example of the Apoc was also a direct pull of a working fit. Though I should of thought of the Addadon instead, my mistake on that one.

[elitatwo]

Guys please!

It is not the gun alone that I am worried about it is the ships those guns go on which have every advantage inbuilt into them.

Take the smallest one, the Damavik for example. The Damavik has 2 slots with cap bonused neuts on which are devastating to any other frigate known to man.
In a tech 1 frigate 1v1 there is no other frigate that can win against a Damavik and the Damavik isn’t really slow to begin with.

When you look at the Kikimora, show me any other tech 1 destroyer which can fly 3km/s with 400dps at 60km and tell me how balanced that is.

Then the Vedmak vs a rupture, stabber, Omen, Maller, Caracal, Moa, Thorax, or Vexor - none of them is capable of winning, no matter how much bling to put on them.

Must I continue?

I don’t know about you but any other ship that isn’t a pirate faction class ship will have a really bad day against those triglavian ones, which are clearly pirate faction class power levels and up.

So unless you have really terrible pilots with way too much isk to spend, you got the madness we are currently in.

[dewk]

That it, only poor tactics or fitted Trig ships make them bad.

If the other ships maintain distance advantage then a Trig pilot needs really work on their tactics to counter the distance disadvantage.

As you know that optimal range limitation on the turrets can be a real pain some times. I tend to sacrifice two midslots for tracking computers and use the Veles turret (has the best range and tracking of all turrets), and have both optimal and tracking scripts. As noted in above that can push the Veles with Meson ammo out to 87km hitting range, or at close range push tracking on the large turret to almost 12.

Though i see many focus on DPS, and forget the whole range limitation. When against other Trigs i’ll keep range as long as possible, and then if they get into their turret range, i’ll close to as close as possible and circle at speed. As anyone knows most try to close range by flying straight, and this is good for a range setup, as you tend land solid hits, generally equally to penetrating hits that do above 100% (i think its 300%, if i remember correct).

And as most have guessed by now i personally focus on landing hits, and gaining higher than base damage.

That Leshak fit i use has landed high of up to 8k HP damage hits on other battleships, generally one shot kills everything up to cruiser (cruisers are 1-4 hits depending on fit and tactics they use) and against structure 19k with the same fit (yes a full on DPS fit should do much more on structures),

The ikitursa setup is similar in fit and can easily take on T3 cruisers, by using similar tactics. Its heaps of fun watching them panic as it starts hitting them further than they expected, and then find they have issues getting good hits when they get close, while it keeps landing solid heavy hits.

Ive lost an ikitursa to a T3 because i stuffed up (real rooke one too) by switching targets. Was doing lowsec mission and was on last elite battleship, didn’t notice T3 till it targeted me, whole fight was going well, and for some dumb reason i switch targets, even though i had T3 almost to hull. Yip real dumb rooke move, and it cost me. But no bitching or rage log, just told him good fight. Now when he sees me, he says hi, but doesn’t engages.