LOL. I guess the anti- big ship crowd would really love this. Turn one of the big ships they hate - battleships - into a machine to kill the other big ship they hate - capships - by giving it XL guns. And in so doing, have the one step on the role of the other by giving it said XL guns.
I don’t know too many people that hate battleships, or more precisely, those that do hate them do so because of their lack of speed, utility, EHP, DPS, etc. and they’re kinda right. battleships take full damage or close enough to it from cap weapons and from everything below them. That is what makes them in such a bad spot.
In addition marauder and black ops hulls are just too expensive vs. with the current cost and insurance of caps making them in general not worth using. And this is true. I took a good look at zkill and I see plenty of fully fitted cap ships that are indeed very close to what empty marauder and black ops hulls cost (literally 100-200mil difference pending market swings), and that is before the cap insurance, which just adds to that.
And the whole brand new issue of the ubber structures in HS. There really does need to be a practical way to deal with them.
I don’t justify it because if you had any clue about game balance it would be obvious to you. But don’t worry, I’m not going to lecture you about this, I wouldn’t want to give you a headache.
A good comparison indeed : there was one Death Star in the whole galaxy. I’d be fine with carrier if there was only one in our galaxy. Unfortunately there are thousands of them. Also, it took one shot from one fighter to destroy the Death Star. I’d be fine if a frigate could one shot a carrier. I’m sure you would not. Also, ask you US Navy admirals in their battleships or carrier if they would go in an ennemy sea alone and what they are the most affraid of. Do you know there are manned torpedos designed solely to destroy these ships ? It didn’t took a fleet to sunk battleships.
So yeah, please do continue your comparison, you are only making a fool of yourself. Now if you want to understand game design or game balance, please ask, I’ll gladly answer.
About XL weapons to a new subcap, I’m affraid it would screw the balance and solve nothing if they are not priced correctly. If they are cheaper than cap, they would become the goto ship to destroy structure while caps would still ■■■■ on all other subcap fleets. And if they are too expensive, caps would be better.
I’d rather see their tank reduced to marauder level. This way they can keep their weapons almost alone and the mortals flying subcap can kill them without a specific fleet.
Bah, this whole discussion feels like 2014 again. Capital ships rule the game, and cap pilot’s lobby will scream and threaten CCP with all they can to prevent any meaningful change anyway.
Good. I’ll let this statement stand on its own for others to read and ponder.
Thanks. Please continue to put your true thoughts out there. It is exactly what I’ve known and said since the “OMG NERF BATTLSHIPS!!” days - there is a group of players out there who hate anything larger than a cruiser, and want the entire game crafted around their small ship preference and playstyle. And the more players who are aware of this, the better.
Of course there are torpedoes designed to destroy these ships, or to do this or that. As technology progresses and time passes, people quite naturally and unsurprisingly invent ways to defeat older technology, obsolete older technology, etc. When the tank was first invented, it was quite a kick-ass machine. Now there are a bazillion ways to kill one, whether surface to surface missiles, air to surface missiles, dropping bombs, etc.
When planes were first invented and used in war, I’m sure they dominated. But now there’s a bazillion ways to blow them out of the sky.
Nowadays, the USA or Russia or China could literally just nuke entire fleets of carriers, nuke entire armies of tanks, etc. So by that logic, we should remove both frigates and carriers from the game, and transform it to Nukes Online.
The minutia is unimportant for our purposes here. How technology evolves over time to obsolete other technology is unimportant for our purposes here. This is a game. And what is important in this game is to capture the “concept” of what it means to develop something like a battleship in the real world, a carrier, a Star Destroyer or Death Star in Star Wars, etc. What do you think the idea or concept was for inventing the first battleship? Why make it so big? Why layer so many tons of thick armor on it? Why make the guns so huge? Was the point to create something that was low DPS, vulnerable, and easily killed by smaller ships? Why did the Empire create the Death Star? Because they wanted something weak, non-dangerous, and easily-killable?
Your attempted point is irrelevant. It’s a game of space warships, basically frozen in whatever time these ships were invented. And we either want a progression from small, cheap, non-powerful, non-skill intensive warships to large, expensive, powerful, skill-intensive warpships, or we don’t. We either want something to skill towards and aspire to (I still want to sit in a Titan, and have been pursuing that since I started Eve), or we don’t. Well… I say we do, and you say we don’t. I say we want all ships in the game, from frigates to Titans (and if I had my way, even Death Stars). You’d rather just have frigates and cruisers flying around.
Opinions and preferences are like buttholes - everybody has one. CCP will ultimately come to a decision on what they want. In the past, CCP listened to forum whine by a minority of players, and nerfed battleships. So my advice to you is, if you want your way, keep doing what you are doing. Keep generating all manner of wailing and gnashing of teeth on these forums. It worked for you and your ilk in the past, and it may work for you in the future. As for me, I’ll keep opposing it, and if the game is changed so that I have nothing to aspire to, I’ll do the only thing I can do - leave.
And it doesn’t take a fleet to destroy a carrier in Eve, you and your ilk just keep repeating lies. I posted to these forums just yesterday a killmail with a single cruiser and frigate destroying a Thanatos, but the mods removed my post.
I’m happy to continue with my comparisons, and let others be the judge of who is the fool. And for the record, I’ll put my understanding of game design and balance against anyone’s, because I’ve worked on both for years professionally, and have written papers on the topic.
I sincerely pity the players who played your game, considering what you are saying about capital balance in EVE. And I guess such authority argument after all you said that was irrelevant to game balance, shall close this “discussion”.
Games (plural).
Look, by all means think what you want of me and my ideas (and I’ll think what I want of you and yours) - I honestly couldn’t care less. But this thread doesn’t need a pissing or insult contest. So send whatever personal stuff you want to my private mail, and let’s leave it out of the thread.
so, “damage cap” to be able to hit larger ships with smaller ships. yeah no, that’s cancer enough with structures.
the only way i see this getting right is:
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connecting the progression instead of separating ship clases into subcaps and caps. while this can still be present in terms of skill system, balance wise the difference shouldnt exist in terms of stat jump and powercreep (not at this point where is so easily to inject and produce the materials to buy a Dread/Carrier/Titan).
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either capitals and supercapitals get their stats reduced to be put close in line to battleships or battleships get buffed to further separate them from battlecruisers and close the gap with capitals.
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HAW Weapons and Fighters get looked at to make them competent at hitting Battleships and Battlecruisers, decent against cruisers when using webs/application mods and bad against destroyers (and frigates).
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no changes to material cost of capital ships (seeing that we’re reducing their stats and power so why make them costly?), but perhaps insurance changes to make them feel like an actual loss (this is debatable)
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change capital modules in order to make them feasible (yet costly on fitting) to use on battleships (this is just to follow current subcap progression in terms like oversized prop, batteries, shield mods and so on). some of them may still be cap and supercap only features (PANIC, NSA, Doomsdays and so on)
all in all the idea is that capitals and supercapitals arent a show of power anymore, they shouldnt be still treated like special snowflake ships that were supposed to be counted by the handfull from some alliances, that just doesnt work anymore. current skillplans and the economy itself has converted them in yet another disposable vessel.
so there’s no need to have a difference between cap and subcaps, they’re just larger ships to spam (and whelp). and as such they have to get put in line with the rest of ships avaliable in the game. more than an issue of proliferation and opression against smaller ships is a matter of how these larger ships are still being considered something to fear when they are so easily obtained nowadays, that limit doesnt exist anymore.
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