This thread is dumb enough on redit, you had to bring it here?
They already do have reduced application, its called stupid out of scale EHP.
Disagree. All ships in Eve should be on linear balance scale, so maybe I do not disagree completely, but they just shouldn’t be out of whack like now.
Ultimately, I’m of a mind that while capital ships are a bit OP, one needs to differentiate capital from subcapital to two different scales, with one important crossover.
For example, (super)carriers are anti-subcap capitals. They’re literally built to kill subcaps; supers have their heavy fighters and they can be very dangerous to other caps, but at the end of the day the carrier platform is meant for killing subcaps.
To argue that they shouldn’t be strong against them is to argue that a battleship with a neut/grapple/stasis combo shouldn’t be able to kill frigates with impunity.
With that said, we’ve got the capital > subcapital crossover. Dreads need to get rid of HAWs; they do nothing but crowd the niche.
Now… subcap > capital crossover. In a word, battleships. They’ve got the buffer to survive a carrier’s volley (though I do believe battleships deserve more buffer than they have now), they’ve got the damage to seriously ■■■■ up fighters, and the utility to apply that damage to fighters.
In terms of weaknesses, it feels fair to me. Battleships can’t be defanged, and carriers can’t be blapped.
If you flew 10 battleships with 3 logistics cruisers against 10 carriers with 3 faxes, I’d actually bet on the battleships to win that fight. The battleships would defang the carriers, kill the faxes, and then kill the carriers. Would they take losses? Sure they would. That’s PVP.
The biggest problem here is that battleships have been in a pathetic place for years.
The gap between battlecruisers and battleships is marginal at best (compared to say frigs and destroyers and even destroyers and cruisers.)
The answer may not lay in nerfing the hell out of capitals. But in buffing subcaps.
Right now the balance scale looks kinda like this.
What I think needs to happen is something that looks more like this.
By buffing subcaps by a little bit each relative to each other. You put a little bit more distinction between each class of ship. And at the same time, narrow the gap between subcaps and caps (without eliminating the gap completely since caps do require considerably more training and investment to use)
I completely agree. My two biggest complaints about battleships are their warp speed (which discourages their use given how easily they can get trapped), and that they deserve more buffer. The idea of ol’ Ironsides is exactly what a battleship should be. They should be able to take a pounding.
In today’s age, that pounding means imo 200-700k EHP in buffer. There’s no set of circumstances that I can think of where a battleship that would lose a 1v1 fight against other subcaps today would win with that extra buffer; it’s invariably a question of dps application for them… if they can, they’ll win. If they can’t, they’ll lose.
Exactly. For the past decade we have seen nerf after nerf to ship after ship. And very rarely have we seen actual buffs (they have happened. But at a drastically lower rate)
The result of the continual nerfs is that the gaps between the different classes of subcaps has been getting narrower and narrower. To the point where a battlecruiser is really just a slightly tankier cruiser. A battleship is just a slower battlecruiser with a little bit more tank and range.
Yes, the carrier buff was one of the few recent buffs and it made the gap between subs and caps larger. But that is only a symptom of the “nerf anything that’s too good” problem. We need to start buffing things instead to bring balance back… Yes it will make it harder for a solo frigate to take down a destroyer etc up the line. But that’s a minor problem compared to the imbalance we have now.
There’s been a bazillion threads on reddit, and a bazillion threads on these forums right here, and it has existed for years. And before the capship hate, it was battleship hate from the same crowd.
The idea that a Carrier is 10 times better than a subcap is comical. Has anyone here tried to take on a carrier with a subcap. It often requires WAY more than 10 subcaps to do it. Unless you are using T3Cs… and T2 Battleships. And even then it is a close fight.
I look at things in a isk vs isk balance. If a ship of a certain ISK value can easily destroy more than its isk value against equally skilled targets in a equal situation then it is OP. But the reverse is not true. Because at that point you have to look at the ships intended role. If it is a Logi and it is destroying its value in ships then there is a problem. But if it can save friendly ships of its value before it dies then it has paid for itself.
How do you think they got that way? The same “I hate big ships” crowd screamed about battleships years ago, and they were nerfed. Now they continuously scream about capships.
What was the last nerf to battleships as a class besides the warp mechanic rebalance ?
Weren’t grappler and MJD some kind of buff to BS ?
Cruisers got serious buffs during tiericide which effectively nerfed battleships. Now I’m not arguing cruisers didnt need them.
Also the old t3 Battleships got a slight nerf in tiericide
Oh, I’m reassured then. I was affraid I missed something important.
Cap are a big problem though. It was fine when they were rare or impractical to use, but now that they are as common as any other ship because of rorqual efficiency, they don’t justify their power.
Killing every subcap showing up that’s not prepared for you is not a niche. Capital ships need to be streamlined in the ship linup. They can’t simply ■■■■ on all subcap unsupported or there is two game level. Anyone with a brain can understand this I hope.
Capitals each need a role, and they need to be thought with subcap around them in the case of fleets. IMO they should be thought more like battleship with special abilities. Launching death squads of fighter from affar and jump drive are abilities worth a lot in themselves, why do they also need the ability to tank a whole fleet ? What does that serve ?
But of course the hordes of carebears who farmed them will go berzerk if you dare touch them.
You are saying that big ships have to “justify their power” if they are “common.” Of course there is no reason or rationale presented for this, it’s just a bare assertion, and a bunch of gobbledygook.
Again, just a bunch of unsubstantiated gobbledygook, mixed with bare assertions, distortions, exaggerations, etc.
They don’t necessarily need a “niche” (I’m not saying they don’t already have one, I’m just saying they don’t necessarily need one just because you say they do). They can just be big ships with a lot of hit points that kill things.
It’s the religion of subcap. Subcap #1, subcap pilots #1, all other ships, pilots, play styles, etc. are subordinate or irrelevant.
Your questions and musings are nonsensical. Why don’t they need the ability to ‘tank a whole fleet’ (as if that’s even possible, which it isn’t)? Why don’t you ask that question to the owner of the Death Star in Star Wars? Why not ask this question to Admirals operating carriers and battleships and whatever else in the US Navy? Ask them “what does it serve?” LOL.
You can kill a carrier with a couple of friggates. Without ECM. You just need enough to tackle and defang it. Because the biggest weakness of carriers is, they fighters have got a signature like crazy and the ship it self has most of the time no weapons.
Not adding the fact that some people tank them with cardboard…
Every carrier pilot I’ve ever seen runs and hides like CRAZY if a neutral frigate or cruiser (especially a Sabre or something) or T3 destroyer shows up in local. Now if a battleship shows up? Yawn. If a neutral capship shows up (something that never happens, because you’d have to be CRAZY to fly a capship around in neutral)? Double yawn, accompanied by laughter. But a frigate or cruiser? Total terror.
Which tells you something about the hyperbole and hysteria of the other side. Who goes around hunting in capships? If they are as powerful and terrifying as the other side claims, everybody would do it. But nobody does it. Instead, they use frigs, cruisers, T3Cs, etc.
That is because each of those are
A) fast enough to catch a slow capital
B) Have the ability to lock it down for long enough to get reinforcements on grid
B) Are usually ran as the scouts/first tackle for fleets.
Each of those ships is doing their intended jobs. You cannot really build a case on that.
I wasn’t criticizing the job they are performing. I was making the point that the carriers don’t fear the ‘dreaded ultra-OP’ capships the other side complains about, they fear the small ships.
It’s not the single frigate they are scared of. It’s the fleet that can be coming after it. It’s the same reason why everyone (be it a capital or a cruiser) is more afraid of a random frigate showing up in your system.
The thing is they are almost exactly where they need to be vs sub caps except some specific hulls have some specific issues which can be easily tweaked with just numbers. No need for reworks or major rebalancing or any of that, just some minor tweaks here and there.
Now vs caps, that is where their issues come into play. So to that account I don’t know. I actually read quite a bit of the discussions going on reddit and there are some interesting ideas floating around that might work.
Give them access to Xl weapons, make Black Ops / Marauders more effective vs caps and structures, introduce some modules that will make them more effective in cap fights but will reduce application to smaller targets etc.
Frankly speaking I’d be OK with any of this stuff. Add to that we do need some XL weapon ships or alike in High Sec due to structure spam and now we are seeing a Keepstar and I guarantee you its not the last, there will be many. We do need a much better way to take them out in HS.
I also believe this is a perfect opportunity to kill 2 birds with 1 stone, because if done in certain ways buffs of whatever form can and should be applicable to both due to target size and the current in game mechanics and all this can be done without imbalancing Battleships vs sub-caps due to the way DPS application works.
So as much as I don’t really like the whole reddit thing, this actually makes a lot of sense from both these stand points. I just hope CCP does something, not nothing. They did state that they will be addressing this issue quite possibly in the major Q1 or Q2 of 2019 updates but they also said they have no idea what exactly they are going to do or how they are going to go about it.