Implant mechanics stop people from playing Eve - Solution

EVE Technology and Research Center Player Features & Ideas
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42

How is that unreasonable?
Once you already have omega (like almost all veterans), remapped your attributes (like almost all veterans) and maybe even use boosters whenever they are not expired (like a lot of veterans do) there are only 2 ways in eve left to increase your SP:
skill injectors and implants.

Not using implants means only skill injectors are left as a choice. Therefore it’s the only way to compensate for the missing SP and the only thing left to compare it to. And i know a shitton of people who use skill injectors under these circumstances.
That is the only way you can pay isk to compensate/make up for the not-gained SP.

Once you already used all the obvious/easy ways to increase your SP gains (like again almost everyone does anyway) these are the only considerations left. And as the opportunity cost of 1.9 shows it’s a rather big decision.

43

Your comparing the price of using injectors against implants as though they are supposed to be similar. That’s unreasonable because skill injectors are deliberately designed to be inefficient. Especially for vets.

You’re argument is either dishonest, or dumb.

Show them this thread then. Cause they are dumb and pissing isk away.

This is ONE opportunity cost.

You could do the math for being in +3’s for a few days a month.

44

Again. It’s not that hard to understand. I have skills I’m waiting for. If I’m not using implants for around maximum efficiency I only have skill injectors left. And that’s as you said really inefficient, hence why me and other people want to use implants close to maximum efficiency, so we don’t have to use injectors. And that is bad gameplay.

45

If it was that bad you wouldn’t choose it over the alternatives.

You and you’re friends clearly think it’s worth it. Others can enjoy the game without maximum efficiency just fine.

This isn’t a bad game problem as much as a YOU problem.

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46

I can’t think of any other instance in the game where you get the benefit of an item while it is safely locked away in a station and you are out PvP-ing. Why should implants be any different? (Really, this is the only point that needs to be made, but I’m a math nerd so I’m running with it…)

Let’s look at this in terms of opportunity cost of selling SPs. In order to sell a large skill injector for 907 million ISK (using the price you listed), you need 500,000 SPs. EDIT: Actually, you need to deduct the cost of an extractor from that, which run about…300million ISK the last time I checked, so my math will be approximate. This yields an ISK cost of 1814 1214 per SP for selling an injector compared to your substantially higher 6047 ISK/SP. Doing the math:

(27+10.5) * 60 minutes * 24 hours = 54000 SP * 1814 1214 ISK/SP= 98 66 million ISK/day in potential SP sales

Or, if you use +2s (which are, what, a million or two ISK per implant?):

(29+11.5) * 60 minutes * 24 hours = 58320 SP * 1814 1214 ISK/SP = 106 71 million ISK/day in potential SP sales

Whereas with +5s (which run a few hundred million ISK for a pair):

(32+13) * 60 minutes * 24 hours = 64800 SP * 1814 1214 ISK/SP = 118 79 million ISK/day in potential SP sales

So if you look at this in terms of what you miss out on being able to sell SPs (i.e. the opportunity cost of using cheaper implants), it’s only about 20 13 million ISK per day if you skip implants altogether, or only about 12 5 million ISK per day if you use +2s. But you’re still earning 5x as much as you lose from not using implants just from your base stats.

Not a horrible proposition really. In fact, to earn back the cost of those +5s (a few hundred million at least) over +2s you’d need to use them uninterrupted for several months. This suddenly makes them a lot less appealing unless you’re going for absolute maximum long-term profit.

Now, if you’re more concerned with actually acquiring SPs to use instead of farming them to sell, your math makes a bit more sense (although it’s incomplete since it ignores the base stats). On the balance, I think the best option is to assume an ISK cost for SP somewhere between our examples, which, while not as favorable as what I laid out, still isn’t a bad deal considering the whole “risk vs. reward” thing.

Cheers.

EDIT: forgot the cost of the extractors…

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47

Summary, buy cheap implants and have more fun :slight_smile:

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48

where you assume you need to buy the missing SP with injectors.

Your calculus is correct otherwise. You however forgot to takeinto account the use of other implants (like the +3)

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49

@Bronson_Hughes
Thank you for your well written comment. There is however some points I would like to make:

  1. There is quite a few things that benefit you while just sitting in a station. You can already safely use implants while docked in a station and always keep them there. You can research, copy and produce with Blueprints to make money, while not risking any of it unless the structure gets blown up. And on a weird note technically the whole skilling process works while safely beeing docked, so you can use ur capsule/account even while logged out in a station.
  2. About calculating the isk value of lost SP: I agree that the values are quite different whether you want to buy or sell the missing SP. I would however argue that most chars you want to constantly undock to pvp are the same chars that you want the most SP on, because they are the main chars. So I’d argue the value should be closer to the buy value than the sell value.
  3. Talking about the cost of +5s and how long it takes for them to redeem themsselves: I have most of my 5+ sets for far more than 5 years now. They initially cost me around 500mil and have since then provided me with SP at the very least every night but also during all periods where I didn’t log in. They have long redeemed themselves more than multiple times, even using sell values. They are already completly safe, sitting in your upwell structure. It’s like your comfy pillow you crawl into once your done with the days work. That is actually part of them problem. The implants are completly save if you keep them in a structure at all times but incredibly fragile if you would use them while you actively play.

@Anderson_Geten
I can agree that, like Bronsen said, you don’t have to use the sell value. You could say the actual vallue is somewhere between buy and sell. Like I just said however I still think the buy value is closer to the truth for the characters where this is actually an issue. Addionally I think that even at the lowest reasonable cost, the sell value of those SP, the isk that you could actually gain by just keeping implants in is still several million isk a month for just staying docked with implants as much as possible. I still consider CCP rewarding ppl for staying docked/inactive in safety bad game design.

On annother note, even if it doesn’t help my case I want to calculate the sell value of the SP gained from +5s ^^

+5s gain you the following SP per day: (5+2.5) stats * 60 minutes * 24 hours = 10800 SP
the cost of a 500.000 skill extractor in Jita is: 433,000,000 isk
the cost of a 500.000 skill injector in Jita is: 904,500,000

So creating a skill injector for the SP gained from +5s cost you the SP and isk for the extractor:
10800SP/500000SP * 433,000,000 isk = 9,352,800 isk

Selling the daily SP as a Skill injector gives you:
10800SP/500000SP * 904,500,000 = 19,537,200 isk

Subtracting the cost due to the skill extractor from the income through selling the injector gives you a net profit of: (each day)
19,537,200 isk - 9,352,800 isk = 10,184,400 isk

So selling the SP you gain from +5s after a whole month gives you a net profit of:
30 days * 10,184,400 = 305,532,000

That is not the 1.9bil it costs you to buy them but still a nice reward from CCP for staying docked in safety.

That also means that if you sell the SP you get from 5+s after 2 months you already made a profit ^^ So it does not take several years ^^

50

I already made a post before on that.

every 1 attribute nets you 1.5 SP/min, thus 90 SP/h

902430*417/500 000= 54.04 M isk lost by MONTH and by attribute loss.
The difference between a set of +5 and none is therefore +270M isk/month, at current rates.

Note that contrary to many people I think you are right.
Just on this particular point I disagree with your calculus.

51

This is the most likely course of action by CCP.
Who will then gladly sell learning boosters instead.
Your learning costs are going up, because you are hooked.

CCP giveth and CCP taketh away…

52

I would LOVE to see them get rid of Attributes.

Clearly, they thought that people would care about the roleplay aspects of the game. That’s why we have Intelligence and Perception and Charisma. Because those are terms that games like WoW and D&D are focused on using and improving.

But… it doesn’t matter in Eve. We aren’t even really “people”. We’re just meatsuits filled with Skill Points. Our physical bodies are nothing more than paper dolls we dress up before taking our Pilot’s License Photo. After that, the real “characters” of the game are the ships. We put on different ships the way other MMOs put on different armor or choose different classes. We don’t equip a sword, we fit a rack of guns or missiles. The ships are the real characters, not the bodies.

And most importantly… ever since they added Skill Injection, it’s become clear that Skill Points are not tied to our Attributes in any way. If you remap for maximum Gunnery training, and then suck it out and squirt it into Diplomacy instead, you’ll get just as much SP from the Injector either way. You don’t get extra SP from the Injector if you squirt it into a skill you’re mapped for, and you don’t lose any SP if you squirt it into a skill you’re not mapped for.

Attributes are a needless variable to how quickly SP is accrued. If they’re going to stick with Injectors, allowing people to buy their way into skill training, then they should stop pretending like our Perception or Memory matters at all. Just say that Alphas gain X per minute, and Omegas gain 2*X per minute. Get rid of the purely training based implants, and take off the attribute bonuses from the others. People will still use Slaves or Halos, but they won’t care about having a +1 or a +5, they’ll only care about the extra Armor HP.

53

Do learning implants and attribute scores suck? Yes
Are they what stop people form PVP? No

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54

*cough*Pixel Cowardice*cough*

55

Some fair counter-examples, but two points:

  1. All industrial activity involving blueprints is inherently limited to stations. Comparing that to implant mechanics, which work both docked and undocked, seems somewhat faulty.

  2. Note that I specifically said, "while it is safely locked away in a station and you are out PvP-ing." (Emphasis added.) Your example about implants being safe while you’re logged out is technically correct, but also pointless because all of your assets are safe while you’re logged out (within the realm of asset safety, anchored structures in space, etc.) and you certainly aren’t PvP-ing.

What you’re asking for is the equivalent of buying an expensive faction warp scrambler, keeping it in a hangar in your home station, and having the attributes of that warp scrambler apply to any warp scrambler you have fit while out PvPing. I’m sorry, but that’s patently ludicrous.

If you want the benefit of expensive implants while you’re out PvPing, you have to risk those expensive implants. Full stop.

I understand wanting to plan, optimize, and perfect everything as you mentioned in your original post. I’m much the same way, and I’ve gone to great lengths to find interesting ways to test odd min/max combat fits with minimal risk. Not because I’m afraid of losing my ships, but because I don’t want people to know what I’m flying; if they did they’d be able to counter me rather easily.

But in EvE, part of that planning is understanding the risk of PvP and incorporating that risk into your plan. You just want to do away with the risk, which is anathema to EvE.

56

But the alternative to my suggestion is not more risk. The alternative is staying docked more often. ^^ There is no risk either way, just CCP encouraging us to stay docked as much as possible and miss out on some SP while pvping (: Noone actually used +5 implants while nullsec pvping in a subcap. That’s not actually a valid choice. That’s just beeing bad. (:

57

Back when clone states impacted how many SPs your clone could retain if you got podded, you got presented with a choice: pay to upgrade your clone, or lose SPs if you got podded. CCP removed this functionality when the realized that it wasn’t really a choice because there was no real strategy involved in choosing to upgrade your clone or not. There was no option to have an “expensive” pod or a “cheap” pod, they were all the same; most often not upgrading was just people forgetting to do it.

Unlike the old clone states, with implants there is some strategy involved. Staying docked because you have expensive implants plugged in is a choice to avoid risk. You can also choose to undock with the expensive implants (which is the riskiest choice), or choose to jump to a clone with less expensive implants (which minimizes risk financially at the expense of sacrificing SPs).

I see that you do get podded quite often, and that, as far as I can tell, you only tend to lose bare pods. Kudos to you for getting out and fighting and posting with an actual combat character instead of just being some forum alt complaining. I mean that.

But think about what I said earlier. How much more expensive would it be if you started using a pair of +2 implants in your pods? You’d lose less than 5 million ISK per pod loss, and you’d gain almost half the benefit of +5s that cost hundreds of million ISK each.

You have choices to make. There are risks to take, or avoid. Your proposal would eliminate both. Try risking a little more than you have been and I suspect you’ll be quite happy with the results.

58

Even if I accepted that running +3s is “normal” and just part of losing a ship, that would still keep the same problem around.
You only get the additional +2 SP while docked. So you still will get more SP while beeing docked. The difference won’t be as impactfull, but it’s still there and still bad game design.
And let’s be real, noone will actually suggest pvping in 5+s is a good idea, right?
So staying docked is always where you get the most SP.

59

Staying docked with +5s plugged in is where you will get the most SPs if you are unwilling to undock with said +5s plugged in, yes. And it’s pretty clear that this is not a risk that you are willing to take. (And, quite frankly, neither am I.)

But there are players who are willing to undock with expensive implants. They are taking more risk than you and I are willing to, so they should get better rewards if they succeed. You want to take that away and basically make it so anyone can have a full set of +5s all of the time with virtually no risk. I’m sorry, but that’s contrary to everything that EvE stands for.

60

Actually you made me come up with an interesting idea:
Use the learning implants that you have in station like I said before for your stats. Allow them only in upwell structures like I said before. BUT glue them to the structure. No evacuating your implants. Once you select a structure and that one gets attacked, you either defend them or lose them.
That would probably lead to more isk loss from implants than we have right now AND solve the issue of having to dock.

It would also lead to ridiculous killmails for some structures. (:

61

Um no. If you’re not willing to risk +5’s, then you won’t get the benefits. This entire thread sounds like a rant about how other people who are willing to risk +5’s are getting more sp than you, so CCP should either make it so that it’s completely safe to use +5’s or nobody gets to use them.