In ONE sentence, what change would u like to see in eveonline?

[Phelan_Kheldian]

@Destiny_Corrupted

You seem to be under the impression that I’m claiming that my method results in a faster training time, when at no point have I stated anything as such. In fact, I’ve very concretely said that my method results in slower training.

Yes, but you claim my training program would hinder people trying out new things in the game; but, it doesn’t. You also said earlier:

@Destiny_Corrupted

Meanwhile, I’m actually out in the game world and making ISK, which I use to buy injectors.

My training program gets people able to do anything they want to do faster to earn ISK. And you have yet to prove me wrong on that

But I want to talk about buying skill injectors since you brought it up. So let’s talk about them. According to eveprasial, large skill injectors are going for about 745 million ISK. Let’s go with the best turn out of 500k skill points. Using my training program over a year, you gain a minimum of 2 million skill points… or 4 injectors. That’s over 3 billion ISK saved by simply thinking ahead (and without losing access to any content outside PI) each year… until you hit 5 million skill points (which you will in the first year).

And after that, the savings is worth a bare minimum of 5 skill injectors, which brings our savings up to almost 4 billion ISK.

And that’s assuming inversed learning skill. So, its probably 50% higher than that… bringing our savings to around 4.5 billion to 6 billion ISK every year.

And let’s go ahead and convert that to PLEX prices for the sake of completeness. PLEX is selling for about 2.9 million right now. So, bare minimum of about 1034 PLEX. Going to the EVE store, 1100 PLEX is $40.

Until you can show me how my training plan stops players from trying new activities, your only argument has no merit… as to your other arguments:

@Destiny_Corrupted

Go sample random new players and ask them if they know what Evemon is. Let me know the results.

I’ll answer this argument with your own words:

@Destiny_Corrupted

while guiding them away from mistakes (e.g. “no, don’t train for a carrier yet ”) will result in more player satisfaction

So… what youre saying here is we should educate them… and explain how Evemon works. Thank you for countering your own argument.

@Destiny_Corrupted

I’d even go as far as to say that maybe it would be a good idea to get rid of skill prerequisites for most things (exceptions being stuff like capitals and progressive-tier trade skills), and have them confer bonuses only .

This has nothing to do with remapping and is a red herring argument and I’ll explain why its a bad idea using your own words:

@Destiny_Corrupted

no, don’t train for a carrier yet ”

T2 ships are expensive to new players and most of the prerequisite skills are good skills for them to have. Well, the Graviton Physics for Indictors is dumb, I’ll give you that one.

[Phelan_Kheldian]

@Destiny_Corrupted

You seem to be under the impression that I’m claiming that my method results in a faster training time, when at no point have I stated anything as such. In fact, I’ve very concretely said that my method results in slower training.

Also, I forgot. Thank you for conceding your primary argument of FOMO is incorrect.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Phelan_Kheldian

My training program gets people able to do anything they want to do faster to earn ISK. And you have yet to prove me wrong on that

Once again, you’re making assumptions about the point I’m trying to make. Your strategy is goal-oriented, and mine isn’t. If a player says “I want to run tier 4 abyssal sites in a Gila!”, then your strategy will doubtlessly get them faster, but that requires long-term commitment.

New players, generally, don’t have such commitment. Two weeks of training into the abyssal Gila, they might see someone they know doing wormhole sites, and say “oh, I want to be the healer keeping people alive in a logi ship!” And now, they either have to stick to their original plan, or experience attribute FOMO because they suddenly switch to training a completely different set of skills.

Maybe your friends don’t act this way, because you’re able to assert your iron will on them through real-life husband/landlord influence. But randos you talk to in-game certainly won’t be inclined to listen to you if what you’re saying doesn’t sound like fun. This is the essence of my argument that the current attribute/remap system is a legacy of bad game design.

@Phelan_Kheldian

So… what youre saying here is we should educate them… and explain how Evemon works. Thank you for countering your own argument.

Not every new player is fortunate enough to run into an educator like that. Even fewer will care about anything other than pew-pewing red icons or asteroids.

@Phelan_Kheldian

T2 ships are expensive to new players and most of the prerequisite skills are good skills for them to have.

I view the ability to use whatever you want, even if your skills aren’t high, as a boon for the game. If someone wants to spend money on an Ishtar and all they have is Gallente Cruiser 2, let them.

[Phelan_Kheldian]

@Destiny_Corrupted

New players, generally , don’t have such commitment. Two weeks of training into the abyssal Gila, they might see someone they know doing wormhole sites, and say “oh, I want to be the healer keeping people alive in a logi ship!” And now, they either have to stick to their original plan, or experience attribute FOMO because they suddenly switch to training a completely different set of skills.

Nope. Two weeks in and they are still working on the Magic 14. And as I mentioned, logi skills are under intelligence (the first remap) so they can grab those skills during that time. Once done with those skills (and the Magic 14), they switch over for Starship Command to get Logi frigate and logi cruiser.

That first remap takes about a month or so because of the Magic 14 alone; but, you already have access to ships up to cruisers because of the original training time behind the remap.

Try again.

@Destiny_Corrupted

And now, they either have to stick to their original plan, or experience attribute FOMO because they suddenly switch to training a completely different set of skills.

Again, the plan is set up so the only thing you are missing out on during the long train during the original remap is shield ships (because we went Amarr and Gallente)… and that doesn’t really matter because most of the stuff you are doing doesn’t require a specific doctrine. You aren’t doing incrusions without the Magic 14. In PvP, you’re playing tackle… and the atron and the executioner are ideal starter ships for tackling.

Take another crack…

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Phelan_Kheldian

You aren’t doing incrusions without the Magic 14. In PvP, you’re playing tackle… and the atron and the executioner are ideal starter ships for tackling.

Take another crack…

I don’t have to. You are deciding what other players can and can’t do, and I’m not. It’s apples and oranges.

[Phelan_Kheldian]

@Destiny_Corrupted

I don’t have to. You are deciding what other players can and can’t do, and I’m not. It’s apples and oranges.

Actually, I’m not. Again, the skill plan allows players to do whatever they want.

Your entire argument is based on FOMO. Except you have conceded that my training program gets people into ships faster… and you have yet to give an example of where my way of doing things will result in a case of someone missing out where yours would not…

[Phelan_Kheldian]

@Destiny_Corrupted

Maybe your friends don’t act this way, because you’re able to assert your iron will on them through real-life husband/landlord influence. But randos you talk to in-game certainly won’t be inclined to listen to you if what you’re saying doesn’t sound like fun . This is the essence of my argument that the current attribute/remap system is a legacy of bad game design.

Again, my ‘iron fisted’ system doesn’t have to be used. Feel free to ignore remapping; its your game… just the people who heed my advice will be further along and enjoying things while the people who do not will be missing out.

And its not really iron fisted making people play my way. The people using my skill plan are doing different things already. But the plan worked for all of them because it allows people to experience what the game has to offer to figure out what they want to do while building the basic foundation of skills required for everyone (Magic 14).

The fact you are using loaded words (iron fisted) after your FOMO argument blew up speaks volumes.

[Xeux]

I want to post something really long here, but I can’t think of anything.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Phelan_Kheldian

Again, my ‘iron fisted’ system doesn’t have to be used. Feel free to ignore remapping; its your game… just the people who heed my advice will be further along and enjoying things while the people who do not will be missing out .

Yes, they will be missing out on being further along. In return, they will get the benefit of switching their training on the fly to meet emergent demands.

Getting rid of the remap system, and normalizing attributes to an even split that’s close to maximum training efficiency (27/21, 54,000 SP), maybe right at 50,000 SP per day, would be an extension of removing the learning skills, and would allow players to focus more on playing rather than planning out their training. This can be further boosted by an extension of the Cerebral Accelerator system, in which players could acquire boosters through gameplay and/or microtransactions, to provide minor, shorter-term gains to specific training paths.

[Phelan_Kheldian]

@Destiny_Corrupted

Yes, they will be missing out on being further along. In return, they will get the benefit of switching their training on the fly to meet emergent demands.

You have yet to show an example of how they would be missing out on something using my plan and would not miss out using yours.

You make a claim you have not backed.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Phelan_Kheldian

You have yet to show an example of how they would be missing out on something using my plan and would not miss out using yours.

You make a claim you have not backed.

Very easy.

I remapped to int/mem and am training skills like Hull Upgrades and Capacitor Management. The next day I wake up, and my friend tells me about how his corporation just killed a ratting capital in a wormhole using a stealth bomber gang. I want a stealth bomber.

[Phelan_Kheldian]

@Destiny_Corrupted

I want a stealth bomber.

You aren’t going to fit a stealth bomber effectively without the prerequisites (which are int/mem based)… also… just to get into a bomber without remap is almost 24 days. That doesn’t including cloaking 4 (which is int/mem)…

Try again.

Edit: this plan was set up to get someone into wormholes… we use bombers in wormholes. Trust me, you’re gonna lose this argument.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

I don’t care about fitting it effectively, I just care about being able to use it normally (e.g. I am still fitting it properly with torpedoes instead of putting light missile launchers in the high slots). Under the current attribute remap, I can take care of the Electronic Upgrades 5 skill. Then what?

[Phelan_Kheldian]

Cloaking is a 5 time multipler skill… without remap, that skill takes 5 days to get to 4. That’s after your 25 day run to just sit in the stealth bomber. So, its over a month before you can put the cloak in and bomb launcher…

Also, its pretty clear you have never tried fitting a stealth bomber. To even fit the meta 4s (easiest to fit modules) top launchers, you need Weapons Upgrade 5…

You clearly don’t know what you are talking about…

[Destiny_Corrupted]

You haven’t answered the question.

[Phelan_Kheldian]

@Destiny_Corrupted

You haven’t answered the question.

Yes, I have… assuming your friend is a real friend and tells you it would be over 30 days before you can even sit in the SB with a cloak. You said it yourself:

@Destiny_Corrupted

guiding them away from mistakes (e.g. “no, don’t train for a carrier yet ”)

Edit: just the train to cloak 4 will get them going back to the skill plan…

Edit 2: Electronic Upgrades 5 is still going to be over a week with remap… again, he will get distracted back to the plan before its done

[Destiny_Corrupted]

Nope, you haven’t. You didn’t say what I would be doing after the immediate int/mem prerequisites for the stealth bomber are met.

You’ve done a lot of calling me this and that, however. I mean, feel free to scrape from the bottom of the “you’re a noob who doesn’t even…” well all you want, but that does nothing to help your argument to anyone who’s reading this exchange. It doesn’t bother me nearly as much as you think it does.

[Iceacid_Frostpacker]

Also how about when fitting an Industrial (Nereus) with Large Shield Extenders and needing level 4 training skill for Power Diagnostic System II which is fine but then needing level 5 training (11 Days + ) to be able to use a Reactor Control Unit II

*** How about moving Reactor Control Unit II to level 4 requirement and leaving Level five for Bastion Module I only?

[Phelan_Kheldian]

As I said, I don’t have the exact plan in front of me because I’m out of town; but, I know I had an industrial to 3 before the first remap because its quick and to be able to try everything while doing the Magic 14, you need at least a basic hauler ship.

The skills needed for the two modules mentioned are both intelligence primary… again, the skill plan works. Mostly because I took the Magic 14 and built around it.

[Phelan_Kheldian]

And your suggestion to moving around the prerequisites has nothing to do with the discussion of if remaps should remain and the fact that my skill plan is very effective for everyone.