Pirate BS’ are cheap so their newbro friendly, and don’t take much skill to get into and are effective as soon as you get into them. /thread
For one armor fleets run differently, and my best guess regarding the minimum buffer/resist requirements is that those minimums are there because that’s whatever TDF decided after extensive testing was the minimum needed to have high consistency of “oh ■■■■ this dood forgot to broadcast for reps save him!”, especially keeping in mind that armor reps are only landing after figure a 2-4 second lock time and a 5-8 second rep cycle time (it cannot be understated how much this impacts the requirements of armor fleets compared to shield fleets).
Figure roughly speaking that for an armor fleet reps take about twice as long to land if the Logi has to lock as they get broadcasts rather than prelocking everyone like in VG sites- and it’s entirely down to the way armor reps are applied at the end of the cycle instead of the beginning.
Let me be clear that I don’t think NGeddons should be barred from fleets, rather I simply disagree that they are a viable monohull doctrine for public Incursion fleets where NGeddons comprise the overwhelming majority of your DPS. If you have a dedicated corp or other group of people who are intending to optimize towards running NGeddons in Incursions then I imagine you could make it work- but for the public fleet groups like TDF and WTM, it’s easier for them to take some theoretical hit to their efficiency by diversifying the allowable/optimal hulls so that a wider range of people are able to participate.
My point is that for armor fleets there would seem to be fitting compromises that are not readily apparent to you, which in part may be my fault since I just cloned the TDF Leshak fit onto the NGeddon, and for a flexible-ranged DPS role that’s not ideal (dual Locus rigs would do a lot of work to make a megapulse NGeddon able to project effectively, but this would also necessitate the inclusion of a 1600mm plate).
In fact for armor fleets this is probably a decidedly more optimal example:
better optimized armor NGeddon
[Armageddon Navy Issue, Incursion HQ testrig]
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
500MN Microwarpdrive II
Sentient Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Imperial Navy Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Energy Locus Coordinator II
Large Energy Locus Coordinator II
With dual locus rigs and the ranged-scripted TCs, it can shoot to ~70 km with Scorch. It does still suffer from cap problems even before you have to cycle up the MWD, and usually cap mods tend to be fairly rare on armor battleships- however I’m not 100% on that since I haven’t checked the equivalent options for the other laser battleships (or the other 8-low battleships that aren’t the Leshak).
Due to CPU limits it’s possible that the 4th heatsink could be swapped to a TE, but at that point it’s probably not worthwhile to add it considering the dual locus rigs and dual TCs already present. The Trimark can also be considered a flex slot since it gets ~20.9k raw armor with just the faction plate, so you could run a hyperspatial in that slot if you wanted. I’d say though to probably just keep the Trimark anyway since that gives a little extra buffer if gankers are hanging around.
It should also be noted that Marauders sometimes get used to “call” the site by leveraging their Bastion module, on top of which the Paladin specifically brings some “soft factors” to the table in the form of its utility highs that allow it to easily cap chain and provide backup remote reps.
This is also something you’ve been pretty consistently ignoring in fact, since the two biggest competitors with the NGeddon in this sort of range-flexible DPS role would be the Paladin and the Leshak; while theoretically they may offer reduced paper DPS, they also offer a mix of application bonuses, high anti-structure DPS, and significant utility that potentially allows the fleet to be more DPS heavy or else more resistant to neut pressure as well as generally “safer” to run because more people have reps that they can throw onto someone who takes aggro.
I want to throw out there that I don’t know why TDF has the minimum raw armor/resist requirements that they do, so I am not the person to really point this at- I just know that those are the current requirements, and I can speculate and guess as to why those requirements are the way they are but ultimately I have no idea.
Perhaps you might want to get in touch with some of the TDF leadership to see if you can ask about why those requirements and how they came about.
Conversely I can say that in such a case the Incursion communities are also probably a lot smaller, having fewer pilots able- or willing- to meet the desired requirements.
It’s also the case that they’d have probably transitioned to Leshaks for the bulk of the fleet with the “newbro” option being the Navy Geddon. by this point as well if they’re running armor but that’s neither here nor there.
So this is a bit out-of-order in how I’m addressing it but anyways:
Pirate BS actually are- for the most part- either about as expensive or cheaper than most of their Navy counterparts. Even then it’s still the case that TDF and WTM both maintain a wide variety of mono-race starter fits (which I believe I mentioned) for basic T1 battleships.
It’s bizarre sure but Machariels in particular are affordable enough that nullsec blocs are (or at least were; other factors may have affected this) able to run dedicated Mach doctrines for sov warfare- the sort of thing that calls for thousands upon thousands of hulls to be expended within a matter of days.
If they weren’t cheap enough, and plentiful enough, that null blobs couldn’t run pirate BS doctrines, then maybe you’d have a point. But the thing is, excepting the Barghest, the pirate BS are all pretty much about as expensive as navy battleships.
There is also the matter that depending on the particular pirate BS they often are at full firepower capability the moment you can sit in it (Nightmares and Vindicators specifically, though I think Bhaalgorns also qualify). It tends to be the soft factors that make them exceptional that are improved by further skilling into them- and if your goal is Incursions then for the Nightmare in particular you don’t actually care about the AB bonus (an MWD is still generally faster and you don’t need to maneuver on grid so much that the greater endurance of the AB lets it pull ahead of the cap-chugging MWD).
Yes when incursions started people flew just about anything (can I bring my drake anyone?).
The thing you seem to miss is over the years the incursion groups have tried just about every hull and variation on positioning, sniper/dps ratios etc they could think of. The core of vindicator and nightmare came about as it was the most effective - the only ship that has changed that is the leshak.
This comment comes from my years of incursion experience - I know & flew with the people who fc’d the first mom kill, the first successful tcrc, I was in fleet the first time a shield fleet completed a tcrc, I was on grid the first time a TDF armor fleet lost a mom fight to a shield fleet and in that time I’ve seen just about every hull in fleet including the various amarr navy battleships and still we ended up with the pirate battleship core.
2 Likes
The fits you have presented now and before are all bad. I don’t know if it comes from lack of understanding how this ship works on grid - Or if you are trying to make it seem like it is a worse ship than it really is on purpose. Seeing as you are posting with your alt, and considering all your strawgrabbing so far, i would assume it is a bit of both. I think you are one of the leaders of the armor community from what you have said. I know it is difficult to be a leader and have someone appear out of nowhere and tell you that you are doing things wrong.
The most fatal mistake on the fittings you have linked is the way you balance the rigs and low-slots for the tank and DPS.
Armageddon Navy Issue has 400 rig calibration - 50 more than ANY pirate BS. Yet another considerable advantage over them in this case. The first fit you linked in the thread barely utilize half of its rig calibration. The last one you linked also fails at using all of its calibration. (There is another mistake about those rigs on the last ship, which i will get to later.)
Considering that this ship has the ability to reach your requirement with just 2x T1 armor rigs and 3 low-slots, like these two variants:
Summary
[Armageddon Navy Issue, Armor 1]
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Damage Control II
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery
Gist X-Type 500MN Microwarpdrive
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Corpus C-Type Heavy Energy Nosferatu
Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Large Anti-Kinetic Pump I
Large Energy Burst Aerator II
Curator II x5
Summary
[Armageddon Navy Issue, Armor 2]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier
Corpum B-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpum B-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Damage Control II
Gist C-Type 500MN Microwarpdrive
Federation Navy Tracking Computer
Federation Navy Tracking Computer
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Corpus C-Type Heavy Energy Nosferatu
Large Energy Burst Aerator II
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Curator II x5
You are wasting its perfect ability to fit a T2 damage rig, which it does much better than the pirate ships can.
Next, you keep claiming it has cap problems. As i have said, i think several times already, i used it in a shield fleets to great success and almost never had cap issues. The shield fit i used was similar to this:
Summary
[Armageddon Navy Issue, Shield]
Damage Control II
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Imperial Navy Capacitor Power Relay
Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Core X-Type 500MN Microwarpdrive
Pithum B-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum B-Type EM Ward Amplifier
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Corpus X-Type Heavy Energy Nosferatu
Large Energy Burst Aerator II
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Curator II x5
The cap management of this shield fit is tighter than what it would have in an armor fleet. But it is enough to do the job without issue.
Here is a couple of cheaper armor variants, added for good measure.
Summary
[Armageddon Navy Issue, Starter fit 1]
Damage Control II
1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
500MN Microwarpdrive II
Sensor Booster II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Heavy Ghoul Compact Energy Nosferatu
Large Energy Collision Accelerator II
Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Large Anti-Kinetic Pump I
Curator II x5
Summary
[Armageddon Navy Issue, Starter fit 2]
Damage Control II
Corelum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Capacitor Power Relay II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
500MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Heavy Ghoul Compact Energy Nosferatu
Large Energy Collision Accelerator II
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Curator II x5
I put a SEBO on one of them to show that you can manage without the cap battery even on starter fits. The SEBO however will not give you much of an advantage most of the time in the current incursion doctrine if using the Armageddon navy. When your weapons has the ability to reach most of the grid at any given time - and has instant ammo swapping - you will have a lot of relevant targets to lock up. Therefore the downtime on your guns due to the lack of a SEBO will be less than a ship that has fewer available targets.
The last word on the SEBO though, is that it is not certain until you have tested the fleet itself, not just the ship. If the Armageddon Navy fleet would turn out to be super-blappy (which i think the numbers kind of shows) clearing the grid faster than the current fleets - Then the SEBO will be much more important to the ship. This could also open up other areas of potential change on the fittings.
In the current fleet doctrine, if an Armageddon navy pilot thinks he does not need the cap battery, he could put a SEBO there instead, or a tracking computer, even a cap recharger. It is dependent on many factors. For example:
- MWD type
- Cap power relay in low slot, or not
- Implants - Many different implants can help your cap on this ship. Damage implants: rate-of-fire VS alpha damage. Cap recharge, max cap, gun cap usage.
- T2 damage rig, - rate-of-fire or alpha rig. This will affect the cap of the ship, this should be up to each individual pilot depending what they have, after all the above are factored in. As far as options, or the all-important “choice” go - this ship offers a lot of flexibility when it comes to fitting, for all kinds of players. Especially for armor fleets.
Lastly, regarding the cap transfers; In most cases my fits barely need the NOS, especially with an implant or two. A couple of them are even more or less cap stable without implants. Most players don’t like to run a cap transfer if they can avoid it. You don’t need it on the Armageddon navy.
If you look carefully, i have not ignored them.
Since the Paladin is relevant to what i have said here regarding the mistakes you made on the latest Armageddon fit you linked - i will pretty much repeat what i said about the Paladin in the OP: The extra range you seem to think is very important in both of these cases is only relevant in a very limited number of situations, for a very short time. These times, one extra cycle of your MWD will get you in range. Is this worth needing an extra low-slot for the tank on the Armageddon for - and at the same time having to drop the T2 DPS rig? No. Is it worth losing the sentry drones over, by using the Paladin instead? No.
Now, you said earlier that the matter of choice between a good number of ships is one of the more important factors that rule out the doctrine i suggested;
As you may have realized now, i did not rule out the Leshak. I have mentioned the Loki for webs, and i did not rule out the Vindicator for this role either. That is 4 ships including the Armageddon. I think this is pretty much the same number as the communities have now when it comes to “preferred” ships (excluding the Logistics). Of course, the Armageddon navy would make up the bulk of the fleet in this. But to be honest, i think most would prefer it, especially over the Vindicator if they actually tried it on equal grounds. As i have mentioned, it is a very comfortable and consistent ship to farm sites with for all kinds of players.
I specifically noted the first triple-trimark example was almost certainly suboptimal due to the existence of gun rigs for lasers (as opposed to Disintegrators which have no gun rigs), which is why I noted the second option with 1600 plate instead to get the required armor buffer, which I also noted the third slot- which I used for a Trimark- was flexible relative to the amount of calibration and PG available, but that the use of a 1600mm plate to get enough raw armor buffer was necessary (as far as my understanding of TDF standards go, though TBH I don’t really recall the exact valuations and was basically going off of “it has about as much raw armor HP as the TDF HQ Leshak fit and the resists are at least equivalent”).
I’m not sure if it’s just that you yourself don’t understand how to fit armor ships… at all or if you’re just pissy that I have a point that you don’t like.
HAH
Yeah, sorry sweetheart, this dood is my main and my involvement in Incursions has been mostly “random dooder who joins fleet to make some cash”. Like I said, I don’t know why the TDF standards are the way they are- I’d guess that they have a reason for it, and I have even made some guesses about what those reasons are, but honestly at this point I’d say you should try getting into contact with Havis 911 because he’s the guy who manages the mailing lists for TDF fits and he seems to know what’s what for them.
That’s cute but also stupid. Like on one hand I wish I was one of those leaders, because it’d mean I’m filthy rich so I could easily afford to indulge in bling battleship PvP which would be nice, but alas I’m spacepoor, a scrub, and generally pretty stupid.
I’ll also note that most of the time I reference TDF is because they’re the only currently active armor community that I know of… yeah that’s basically it. They’re the only ones flying public armor fleets right now so they’re the only group I have experience with in terms of their standards.
Anyways so all of that is real nice and pretty but it seems like you’re used to running a nos’d fit in shield fleets, and… TBH I actually don’t know if TDF would let you into fleet with a nos on your fit. They might or they might not- you’d have to ask at least. Maybe it works for shield fleets but it seems like there’s some aspect where you’re including cap mods and I don’t think that those get used for armor fleets as much.
A lot of the reason I consider the Paladin (and similarly the Leshak) strong competitive alternatives is actually to do with the fact that due to their abundance of utility highs they have a lot of room to pick up some slack from the logi, potentially allowing you to put more DPS ships on grid. It’s basically the same reason Nestors are great; they let you turn two logi cruisers into a Nestor and a DPS ship.
Leshaks and Paladins can potentially do the same thing; by offering remote rep/cap chain support they could allow you to swap a logi cruiser to a DPS ship for every 2-4 Leshak/Paladin you have on grid in the fleet.
It’s not so much that they are competitors because they are equally or more capable at being ranged DPS all around, but more that they offer broadly equivalent ranged firepower while also bringing other utility options that allow the potential to turn more of the support fleet into raw DPS.
Granted I’m not so sanguine about web Lokis in armor fleets but that has more to do with the absurdly lopsided nature of the Loki’s armor resist profile making it a colossal pain to actually get properly omni-resisted. In shield fleets I’m sure it would be decent, though it does seem to be an interesting data point that at one point it was used in that role, and now it seems like it isn’t.
Now to be quite honest I think it would be interesting to see Navy Geddons showing up- because TBH the ship is probably one of the worst navy battleships for PvP applications so it’d be nice if it had something it could do decently well- I just don’t think it’s going to be some kind of massive game changer the way you present it.
If only because it’s at least a lot more convenient to have a wider variation of acceptable DPS ships beyond “things like a NGeddon” since not everybody can fly them. And personally I also think that the Geddon family are all hideous so I wouldn’t want to fly them all that much even if they were the ultimate ship of ultimate destiny that was good at literally everything in EVE and could solo kill Titans.
I’m shallow like that, I like my botes to be pretty.
If you are not an alt, i apologize. The forum say you are from 4 months back, this new forum is not what i am used to.
About the utility highs on the Paladin and Leshak you mention. I don’t think it is an advantage at all. Having players focus on more or less two roles at the same time is not a good idea especially if you are relying on them to keep ships from popping. Not only is it unreliable, in most cases it will also affect the performance of their main job.
As i have mentioned earlier here these things have diminishing returns. Which is the same reason that i am not sold on the Nestor and the reasoning for having them replace excellent logistics ships like the Guardian to try and squeeze in another DPS. It is not going to give you much in terms of total fleet performance. You are replacing 481 base scan resolution logistics with ones that have 156. There is also a smaller margin of error, 4 pair of eyes watching your fleet instead of 5, for example. Quite important i think.
Here is a thought…
Your welcome to fly with us but… its not mandatory…
Thanks Krany, perhaps i will do that.
I have to say you are the only pilot i remember from incursions back in the early days. It is nice to see you are still around. You have to be the richest woman in EVE by now 
Best guess is that that’s probably when I first logged in through the forum and started posting. I’ve actually been playing off-and-on since a little bit before The Second Decade was a thing, just spent a few years on skilltrain online.
Was probably only late last year that I got involved in Incursions.
In any case a lot of it just seems that the current communities and their doctrines was driven by a combination of optimization and having to optimize within certain constraints particularly in terms of ensuring that there would be a (relatively) wide range of pilots who could fly as part of the fleet at any given time, even if they’re only just starting out.
Maybe NGeddons really are optimal as a fleet concept, but personally I think that the concessions you’d like need to make in order for it to actually work optimally would probably be a non-starter for most of the public communities that run Incursions.
The Leshark uses a sebo and has a 206 scan resolution which is plenty for locking up armor battleships due to the large buffer. The sebo is also handy for tower bashes in a TCRC as an ECCM script can be loaded up to prevent jamming from the Niarja. Which helps to hold aggro on one person for longer. Which in turn makes logi lives much easier.
My main Leshack starting dps is also 1635.9 dps without drugs. Within 36.2 seconds my Leshack is out dpsing a maxed out Vindicator. Also as the damage ramps up linearly in a straight line for those 36.2 seconds it averages out as 1959.5 dps total over that time.
My main Leshack also has 20.1k raw armour with it’s lowest resist being 71% explosive. It also has the added bonus of being able to travel at 3.04 AU and has a mwd speed of around 1754 IIRC.
As for the utility high i can cap chain with my alt Leshark and run two large reppers for 25 minutes and repair a total of 204 armor hit points per second. Or i can run the third large armor repper for nearly 6 mintues to repair a total of 306 hp/s. If i add on heavy armor bots which i have enough bandwidth to carry a flight off, i can take that up to 378 armor hit points per second repaired, which is near cruiser logi levels of repair.
Having that kind of capability ongrid in case of emergency is very handy and has literally saved many a ship. Especially when that comes from a ship that can ramp up to 3760 dps on tower bashes.
Now from the above post i hope you understand that your Armageddon navy is inferior in every way.
For maximum succes with that i suggest you just try a mailinglist ship and fit
( ,may have sent you the fit ingame)
As i have mentioned i do not know much of how the Leshak as i just returned to EVE after more or less 4 years. I cannot say what it can do or not. It seems like a very good ship. However, as Nightmares, Machariels and Vindicators are still used in both shield and armor communities i think most of what i am saying is still relevant.
If any community is interested in testing this ship i am willing to help out in any way i can through in-game mail and possibly with the testing itself.
When comparing the Armageddon navy to the performance of ships in your current doctrine however it is important to keep in mind that it may not seem very impressive at first. If it was, it would obviously be the main doctrine already. However, I am confident enough in its performance to say that it in the hands of a skilled pilot that know how to use it, with a maxed out ship, it will take aggro more or less consistently even in prime-time fleets.
Let us imagine the average incursion fleet today, lined up in space perfectly sorted by performance from best to worst after taking into account both pilot expericence/skill and ship (Snipers and DPS). The point of the Armageddon navy is to increase the performance of the lower 80-90% of the line. Essentially, the pulse Armageddon navy doctrine puts everyone in a sniper ship with the ability to crank up its maximum DPS by almost 500 more than the current snipers can do, as you can see in the OP. Sniper ships are easy to use.
Last but not least, we have the point of consistency that you get by removing the line between DPS and snipers. A huge advantage when you want to start a fleet in the hours where you have fewer available pilots. It is also a major advantage in prime time because more or less all pilots that X-up will have the exact ship and role you need to maintain high efficiency.
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