Introducing the HyperNet Relay

[MB_ThePhotographer]

No need for that, just give it back to the stupid humans. EVE has plenty of spare ones.

[The_Relevant_Revenant]

i got called a sociopath by one bloke for about a hour so i feel your pain my brother!!!

[MB_ThePhotographer]

The problem for me is when we spot each other in a crowd, we both get a cold chill and wonder what the other one is going to do!

And here’s a couple of links for gambling addiction numbers. (for the US anyway) For the apx 20k players EVE has, we might have 2?

https://addiction.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Gambling_Addiction_Statistics

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/united-states-population/

[The_Relevant_Revenant]

that means theres like 2 cash cows we need to capture and milk right?

[Brisc_Rubal]

@sixoffive

Why is it incorrect?
I pay money to buy plex and then get isk and nodes to gamble with.
I pay money for chips to gamble with.
Once I have some isk I can play the game to get more isk to gamble with without spending more $$$.
Once I have some chips I can play the games to get more chips to gamble with without spending more $$$.

First, from a legal point of view, the two transactions are completely separate. Second, you exchange currency for tokens - money for casino chips - out of convenience. The chips have a monetary value because they can be exchanged back for cash. They are simply a token denoting a dollar value. There is no way to generate casino chips for nothing - even if you are given them by the casino, you can immediately turn them in for cash.

Isk is an in-game currency that only has utility in EVE online. You can’t transfer it legally back into cash, and the fact that RMT exists doesn’t mean that it’s legal or easy to do. It will result in your being banned and all your items confiscated. The EULA makes it clear that you do not actually own or possess any of the in-game items, nor is your time or money you’ve invested into your account yours - it all belongs to them. There is no way to get your money back once you’ve paid it in. EVE is, essentially, a giant slot machine that never pays out. All you get is entertainment out of it.

@sixoffive

If skins only originate from CCP for $$$ then they have monetary value.
Using them for their intended purpose has no relevance regarding monetary value.
Something has monetary value if it otherwise costs $$$ to get which skins do.
If you want to say skins can be traded in game for isk thats the same as trading a car for other items but that doesn’t mean a car suddenly has no monetary value.

This is wrong. For something to have monetary value - whether it’s market value or cash value - you have to be able to trade it. If you can’t sell something, it’s not property. Just because we can do back-of-a-napkin calculation as to what something may cost based on the price of plex for real life currency doesn’t mean that the in-game items have that value in real life currency. They don’t, because there’s no way to trade them legally for real life currency.

You can trade skins, but not for real money. You can buy them with plex, and you can buy plex for money, but you can’t buy skins directly for real life money.

You have to view each of those transactions as separate and distinct, because courts have and will.

@sixoffive

Something has monetary value because it costs $$$ to receive it.

No, it has monetary value because it can be bought AND sold for money. If it can only be bought but can never be sold, it doesn’t have market value. It may have utility for the possessor, but if you can’t sell it, you can’t put a value on it.

@sixoffive

EVE has had RMT going on for many years. Is this a serious question?
I don’t do RMT or condone it however it still exists and people make $$$ from it.

I know that people sell drugs, but I don’t know where to go to get them. And they’re illegal to buy and sell. The fact that they can be sold doesn’t mean that they’re legal to sell or that contracts for their purchase are valid and enforceable - they aren’t.

[sixoffive]

You miss the point that the fact RMT exists gives these items monetary value.
The fact CCP’s rules don’t allow RMT doesn’t mean it can’t and isn’t being done.
Don’t confuse what CCP’s rules say can be done and what actually can be done and what people do exchange for money.
The fact that digital items might not be someone’s property based on the rules of a game doesn’t stop people from exchanging them for money.

You say you can’t exchange isk for money legally however no laws prevent RMT; just CCP’s rules.

[The_Relevant_Revenant]

i just wanna play raffles for eve ships i have no intention to actualy use because fudge undocking lol

[The_Relevant_Revenant]

its internet isk it has 0 legal value and has 0 utility outside of eve so its not gambling as it aint touching real money and is meanigless

[Sgt_Ocker]

Oh Brisk - 29 minutes into your “I don’t have a clue” rant - You got it soooo very wrong.

Hypernet relays are purchased with PLEX from the NES, which can only be put into the game by someone spending real money.
Now whether it is you buying plex for cash yourself and buying relays OR you buy plex off the market for isk - The process still involves someone having spent real money, it is a fine line BUT add the fact minors can play Eve - This whole thing is not entirely legal.

CCP is skating very close to “illegal” in many countries with more countries joining the “online gambling is bad” crowd every day.

And no offence (well sort of) but i had never seen you prior to this and to be honest you look like one of those 70’s movie lawyers that any honest person would avoid like poison.

[Brisc_Rubal]

@sixoffive

You miss the point that the fact RMT exists gives these items monetary value.
The fact CCP’s rules don’t allow RMT doesn’t mean it can’t and isn’t being done.
Don’t confuse what CCP’s rules say can be done and what actually can be done and what people do exchange for money.
The fact that digital items might not be someone’s property based on the rules of a game doesn’t stop people from exchanging them for money.

You say you can’t exchange isk for money legally however no laws prevents RMT; just CCP’s rules.

I’m not missing the point - I’m telling you the point is irrelevant because RMT is not a legal mechanic. It’s not sanctioned by CCP, it’s not made possible by CCP, you engage in it at your own risk, and you’ll be banned if you do it and you’re caught.

This is completely different from, say, the CS:GO issues with keys, because those keys could be bought and sold for real life currency on Steam’s market place. I can buy keys in PUBG, open crates that I earn, then sell the stuff I get for real life money on the Steam Market. That’s completely different from how EVE functions.

The bottom line is there is no legal way to extract real life currency from in-game items, and those that do so are breaking the EULA and TOS, and CCP could pursue legal action to recoup that money from those people if they chose to do it, and they’d likely win.

All of this stuff would be persuasive in any court battle (very unlikely) or regulatory fight (more likely) over this mechanic.

[sixoffive]

@Brisc_Rubal

The bottom line is there is no legal way to extract real life currency from in-game items, and those that do so are breaking the EULA and TOS, and CCP could pursue legal action to recoup that money from those people if they chose to do it, and they’d likely win.

All of this stuff would be persuasive in any court battle (very unlikely) or regulatory fight (more likely) over this mechanic.

CCP’s rules do not make anything illegal.
There is NOTHING illegal about RMT and it is a perfectly legal way to make money.
Sure CCP would ban you but that has nothing to do with it being illegal.
And monetary value has everything to do with what people will pay for something.

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Sgt_Ocker

Oh Brisk - 29 minutes into your “I don’t have a clue” rant - You got it soooo very wrong.

Hypernet relays are purchased with PLEX from the NES, which can only be put into the game by someone spending real money.

That is, again, irrelevant. That is a completely separate transaction from the raffle.

@Sgt_Ocker

Now whether it is you buying plex for cash yourself and buying relays OR you buy plex off the market for isk - The process still involves someone having spent real money, it is a fine line BUT add the fact minors can play Eve - This whole thing is not entirely legal.

There is nothing wrong with spending real life money to purchase in-game currency. I am not aware of any legal regime that has held those transactions to be invalid. You guys keep acting like all of this stuff is interconnected, but it really isn’t.

The sale of plex for money is legal. The sale of plex in-game for ISK is also legal. There is no way to purchase isk directly for real money. Those transactions are layered on purpose for just this kind of situation.

@Sgt_Ocker

CCP is skating very close to “illegal” in many countries with more countries joining the “online gambling is bad” crowd every day.

And no offence (well sort of) but i had never seen you prior to this and to be honest you look like one of those 70’s movie lawyers that any honest person would avoid like poison.

They aren’t skating close to any lines, as far as I can tell, and if you only saw me because of this, you’ve not been paying attention or playing EVE for years. Which makes sense, since the last thing on your killboard is from 2016. If you actually played EVE, you’d know me.

[Brisc_Rubal]

@sixoffive

CCP’s rules do not make anything illegal.
There is NOTHING illegal about RMT and it is a perfectly legal way to make money.
Sure CCP would ban you but that has nothing to do with it being illegal.
And monetary value has everything to do with what people will pay for something.

You’re defining the word “illegal” narrowly to try to make a pedantic point, but the point doesn’t matter so I don’t know why you’re wasting your time.

If RMT is perfectly legal, please show me how I can do it without getting banned. Feel free to post a website where I can find customers, or where people will by my isk from me where I won’t get banned for doing so.

I’ll wait.

[MB_ThePhotographer]

Is sledgehammering soapboxes a hobby for you? I would hate to be on the “other” side of the table from you.

[sixoffive]

@Brisc_Rubal

@sixoffive

CCP’s rules do not make anything illegal.
There is NOTHING illegal about RMT and it is a perfectly legal way to make money.
Sure CCP would ban you but that has nothing to do with it being illegal.
And monetary value has everything to do with what people will pay for something.

You’re defining the word “illegal” narrowly to try to make a pedantic point, but the point doesn’t matter so I don’t know why you’re wasting your time.

If RMT is perfectly legal, please show me how I can do it without getting banned. Feel free to post a website where I can find customers, or where people will by my isk from me where I won’t get banned for doing so.

I’ll wait.

The word illegal is based on what LAWS say.
CCP doesn’t make laws they only make rules of their game.
Those are clearly different.

And yes RMT is perfectly legal.

And no I won’t post websites which help people break the EULA lol. Nice try though.

[Brisc_Rubal]

@sixoffive

The word illegal is based on what LAWS say.
CCP doesn’t make laws they only make rules of their game.
Those are clearly different.

And yes RMT is perfectly legal.

And no I won’t post websites which help people break the EULA lol. Nice try though.

Okay, I see trying to explain this to you was a waste of my time.

[Brisc_Rubal]

I do it to pass the time in boring fleets.

[sixoffive]

@Brisc_Rubal

@sixoffive

The word illegal is based on what LAWS say.
CCP doesn’t make laws they only make rules of their game.
Those are clearly different.

And yes RMT is perfectly legal.

And no I won’t post websites which help people break the EULA lol. Nice try though.

Okay, I see trying to explain this to you was a waste of my time.

Yeah it is a waste of your time trying to tell me CCP’s rules define legality.

[MB_ThePhotographer]

@sixoffive

Yeah it is a waste of your time trying to tell me CCP’s rules define legality.

If you get caught RMT’ing and get banned, take it to court, you lose. Its the law. How hard is that to understand?

[sixoffive]

@MB_ThePhotographer

@sixoffive

Yeah it is a waste of your time trying to tell me CCP’s rules define legality.

If you get caught RMT’ing and get banned, take it to court, you lose. Its the law. How hard is that to understand?

Never said anything about going to court. That doesn’t make RMT illegal.
We clearly have a failure to communicate here.
I don’t even RMT and I know the difference.