Is EVE at its best carrying capacity?


(Hir Miriel) #1

Carrying capacity refers to an environment’s ability to support a population, or varied populations.

For EVE that means players. But we have different types of players. Broadly defined as PvE and PvP, and then also as paying and non-paying.

Here is a game that shows rabbits and wolves and grass in various examples of how different variables can effect carrying capacity…
http://www.shodor.org/interactivate/activities/RabbitsAndWolves/

What that means for EVE is various.
Does EVE need empty space?
Does it need more rabbits or more wolves?
How much elbow room do players need?
Et cetera

Personally, given the amount of time that EVE has been around, and the energy and intelligence of the various people who have been in charge of EVE’s growth and development, EVE has reached its maximum carrying capacity.

Not that the population remains the same, but that when an influx occurs then others leave as the space gets too crowded. For example, it’s nice Jita is a busy hub, but would you like every hub to be that crowded? Every mining spot? Every mission area?

Growth can kill.

Which means ongoing success relies on how to increase revenue from existing players, or creating another space in EVE’s space where growth can occur.


(Akuma Tsukai) #2

eve is dead /thread


(Hir Miriel) #3

Let me hold your hand and explain what this thread is about Akuma.

This is a thread about how it’s in the interest of players to get rid of other players from online games.

Hope that helps broaden your understanding.


(Arthur Aihaken) #4

EVE has not reached carrying capacity. It does have an overabundance of wolves and far too much carrion.


(Hir Miriel) #5

EVE cannot be empty, and have too many wolves and too much carrion.

Those three things don’t work together.

With free entry to the game (alpha) there is no entry barrier from a financial viewpoint. So players will be coming into EVE at the highest possible rate.

I imagine that the beginning of alpha led to a flood of rabbits, and that they have mostly left now. Or replaced wolves that died of old age etc.

There has to be grass, or personal space, in this space game, otherwise you really can’t call it a space game it’s more like a cramped quarters game.

And that personal space is part of the area that each player needs. We could quantify it by working out how many stations, agents, asteroids, ice belts, markets etc. that each player needs on average, so then you have a matrix of what each rabbit/wolf requires.

I’m certain that EVE is at its limit. Sure alliances and corps will come and go, players online will fluctuate, and updates will see surges of population, but at its core, EVE has reached its sustainable limit.


(Whitehound) #6

Let me get into my Skyrim and just put on this ring real quick.

image

So, problem solved.

If anything then EVE needs to remove some stuff to get players closer together, but certainly not further apart. I’d like to see planetary asteroid belts collapsed into one belt per planet. We have so many places where players can mine now that we really don’t need this many niches for players to warp into, especially when these places are all the same.

Just think about where one can mine in EVE these days:

  • Multiple belts per planet with multiple planets per system.
  • The new moon mining.
  • Anomalies such as Small, Medium and Large Deposits.
  • Ice belts also are anomalies.
  • Security missions allow one to mine in them.
  • Of course the mining missions themselves.
  • And I haven’t even tried the mining events yet …

I like to mine now and then, but it’s a lot of places one can go to mine in.


(mimi45) #7

why would they ? to be punchbag, Eve is bad joke in game community and noone want to go in game where “biggest battle online” was neverending LAG, forget new entries in Eve like this, all new alphas are alts of “involved parties” introduced that ccp look better to their …


(OId SouI) #8

This topic hurts mah wee brain.


(Dark Engraver) #9

No eve was able to hold nearly 60.000 concurrent players a while back and with mechanics back then it felt more alive than now and there was more conflict and fun for all group sizes


(Hir Miriel) #10

Ice belts can be mined out in an hour in one of the quieter ice belts.
New moon mining is an active, rather than passive, activity and the high sec moons, are they really worth the effort?
I’ve never really been in the mood to do both Security missions and mining, perhaps some people love it.
I tried the mining event once, it disallowed my Mackinaw, so I’ve never been back.

But this post is not really about mining.

For this post you could just as easily substitute any activity for mining; PvP or mission running or whatever.

It’s all the same grass.

What this post is about is the competition in the environment between players, and how that competition varies in style but in the end boils down to it being of advantage to players to get rid of other players from EVE, or at least their areas of EVE. Either/Or.

So, for this mining example you posit, it’s of advantage to a player to gobble up all the ore/ice/grass as fast as possible, that means fewer players will keep competing for the ore/ice/grass.

But that also means that for new miners that there is less to do. That they get frustrated.

Again, this post is not about mining. It’s the same for any activity, say PvP, you want to kill, kill and kill again any and all competition, you want to drive them from the field permanently.

Again, that field might also include them leaving EVE.

But then what happens when you do get rid of everyone around? A little of the magic of conflict is lost.

Conflict is a normal and everyday part of life, we all live for it and need it.

So we all cause a ruckus in EVE and its forums etc., creating this conflict. But conflict also takes up space and EVE only has so much, so in the end there is a cap on how many people can fit into EVE. Technically it could be 60,000 but realistically given the “personal space” we all like to take up, it’s a lot fewer, about 25,000.


(Whitehound) #11

Sure, but they only pop up sooner then. You will always find a system, which hasn’t been completely stripped of it’s ice. You only need to move and not stand still.

My point is also just to collapse the planetary belts. If you’ve been mining in those lately you’ll find these are sparse with players and try then to find a belt which has actually been mined down. Yet these belts have their own mechanic of regulating the amounts, but it’s just so many of them.

Thus collapsing them to one belt per planet seems like a nice thing to do. Make the asteroids bigger or place more of them in the resulting belt, but have the players closer together. You don’t make new friends by mining alone in a belt.

If you can remember the old ice belts with their huge sizes and numerous players in them, well, that was a sight. There you had fleets and team work. Now you have solo miners trying to hide from gankers and … still getting ganked of course. Seems no good to me to have so many planetary belts.


(Zhilia Mann) #12

If you’re so sure, get modeling. I’d start with a Lotka-Volterra system, but add variables and equations as you see fit. If you can model the Eve population accurately I’ll believe you.


(Avaelica Kuershin) #13

I would have to disagree. Too few wolves, IMHO, to make a dent in the fat rabbit population.


(Arthur Aihaken) #14

If by “rabbits” you mean bots, then I would tend to agree.


(Cletus Graeme) #15

Exactly. OP makes an argument but backs it up with zero evidence.
Are we philosophising? I mean what is the point of this thread…
without stats to back up the claim it’s just empty theorizing.


(Chainsaw Plankton) #16

Look at what the goons are doing in delve it’s what ~14 trillion in bounties and another ~14 trillion in mining value, Now look at all the other null regions and how far behind they are, there’s a ton of room for more activity.

And that’s just nullsec. back in 2007-2010 highsec was far more active, I think a lot of players stuck around because of that. The big mission hubs had a ton of traffic that accommodated multiple play styles. And there were plenty of small out of the way systems where you could go if you wanted to. Now a lot of highsec feels pretty empty why bother with those empty systems when you can just go to a hub? Or why play a game when it feels kinda dead, if you don’t see people in space are you really going to look at the details of what’s actually going on?

In the sandbox more people in space leads to more content. I think eve is no where near close to capacity.

If anything I’d say the problem is people that would want to play eve for the most part already have, they either liked it and stick around, or have left. I think Eve has some fundamental problems that prevent new players from wanting to join, and also some misconceptions that have come up over the years.


(Eternus8lux8lucis) #17

The main issue with eve an player retention is this: sheep become wolves. Over time they dont remain sheep and within the environment but gravitate towards wolves. This isnt something that happens in real life over time no matter how brutal life becomes. Sheep stay sheep and wolves stay wolves.

Because you are discussing liebensraum so to speak your analogies of nature will always fail because of my main point. Wolves will end up bored and need more space to roam and travel to get their wolfish feeding on sheep fixes until soon they even get bored of doing this and soon become bitter vet extreme carebearish bears. Fattening up in spring, summer and fall and hibernating through winter till the next spring. Aka fattening up on sheep and other wolves through good times and hibernating through lean times, wars, decs, etc.

Wolves die to boredom and hunger just as much as fat sheep learning how to be bears become bored. Both in my example gravitate towards bears and other than some snout punching dont do much actual damage to each other over the long term. Where even wars and hardcore mishaps can be sucked up and played through due to Eves nature as a cyclical game where resources respawn and change hands over time.

This progression AWAY from what they started as in game is the main issue with liebensraum and other issues throughout Eve. To go from sheep and wolf to become a bear, fat, happy and with big claws. Makes the ecosystem a truly unique one.

To gain only more sheep doesnt last. Sheep either stay sheep and leave, a very few stay sheep and stay, and more will successfully transition to wolves or big bears. To gain more wolves doesnt last either as they will either get lean and die out of boredom(hunger) or become big fat bears as well.

This bear fast creates blue donuts as snout swiping is all that wars amount to. Theres no need for me say, a 15 year vet, to bother moving my stuff around en mass anymore. I have stuff everywhere. Im fat and happy as a big bear and I can do anything with my 200mil+ SP. The best you can get are a huge killmail here and there or harass me a bit, but then I have alts. And people such as myself is what the game gravitates towards whether you started as a sheep or a wolf, played thinking you were a sheep or a wolf, or even transitioned from one to another.


(z0rberg) #18

I agree. Let’s get rid of every single whiner who blames the game for his faults and let’s all ESPECIALLY get rid of amarrians. They’re the most self entitled whiners ever.


(mimi45) #19

You are completly wrong and because of that attitude ccp hate you.

Eve is in need of new players not in need to get rid of it, and that is big challenge for ccp, How to get more players to Eve ???


(mimi45) #20