Is this harassment?

I completely agree that such situations have to be reviewed on a case by case basis. My post is written with exactly that in mind, considering the elements from the original post and coming to my conclusion for that particular story.

That being said, ganking is not harassment, but the result of deliberately designed game mechanics and rules of engagement. It is officially allowed in all except rookie systems, regardless of how annoying it may be considered by some. Harassment is an entirely different and individual matter, as you say, and would show elements absent from the situation in the original post.

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He’s one half of a pair of inflated egos who both are not representing the symbolic “Greater Man” who would just walk away from such a conversation. Both believe they’re smarter than the other, yet none of either is smart enough to understand the senselessness of this endeavour.

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“Great Men are merely products of their social environment.”

And yes you are right in pointing out that they should just walk away, they really can’t win over the other person, BUT I find this entertaining and I find knowledgeminers logic better. Also he lets me tease him ingame.

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Man, dodging that you had lied in your previous post would have been a much better idea. It would have saved you the embarrassment of not only keep lying, but also showing how terrible your reading and comprehension capabilities are…

Yes, I said “ToS/EULA” there. Only what I said there is that you may be banned for things that are expressly forbidden in the “ToS/EULA”, not that anything not expressly forbidden in the ToS/EULA is allowed. Are you even capable of understanding the difference?

No? Well, it’s easy to see by reading again the quotes of mine you reproduced yourself afterwards, which prove the exact opposite of what you pretend they prove.

What they prove is precisely that what you said in your previous post is a lie, because nowhere did I say that it’s in the ToS/EULA where something has to be expressly forbidden for it to not be allowed. What matters is whether it’s expressly forbidden, not where

Just so you know, repeatedly stating something that everybody agrees with, and that I’ve said myself is obviously the case, doesn’t make the other things you say any less wrong…

Your reading comprehension capabilities are seriously impaired. Nowhere have I ever said or meant that harassment isn’t expressly forbidden. Not in what you quoted to reply this nonsense, not in what I may have ever said elsewhere…

AGAIN, for the umpteenth time, harassment is expressly forbidden. AGAIN, that’s not the question. AGAIN, the question is what constitutes harassment in EvE, not whether it’s forbidden, which it obviously is. AGAIN, nowhere have I said nor meant otherwise…

Got it now? Or not yet?

What? Have you even read the title of this thread?

AGAIN, I do believe, and have stated repeatedly, that targeting an individual with that intent might constitute harassment…

What’s wrong is pretending that targeting an individual and following him around for gameplay reasons is harassment too. According to the current CCP’s stance on the issue provided by the GM response to the OP, that is not harassment…

AGAIN, the reason your opinion isn’t valid is because it’s based on invalid “reasons”, as I’ve shown already…

You keep not getting it. You’re confusing me replying to you with me caring whether you understand a thing or not…

No, read again, I used that as a mere example of how little I care what you believe or don’t…

LOL. Not that I would ever want to twist my words, mind you, I stand by what I said, but why would I have to? You proved that what you said there is a lie with the quotes you provided yourself. There would be no need for me to twist anything even if I was willing to do that. :rofl:

No, it has nothing to do with whether you agree with me or not. Your reading comprehension capabilities are seriously impaired because you “read” things in my posts that cannot be inferred from anything I said or meant, and it’s not because I expressed them incorrectly.

Of course not. The thread title just reinforces the fact that the thread is and has always been about what constitutes harassment, which apparently was news to you when you said that this “hasn’t been the topic of the discussion for ages”…

Do you even understand what was considered harassment when someone has ever been banned for that reason? Hint: It was not because of the things you’re trying to make others believe might constitute harassment…

AGAIN, it’s that those “reasons” aren’t valid why I disagree with them, not the other way round. I’ve shown already why they aren’t valid. Feel free to point out one of those reasons that you think I haven’t proven wrong yet, and I’ll repeat why it’s not a valid reason again, not for you to be able to understand, but for everyone else to see your inability to understand…

I’m glad you finally got it and are letting us all know how sage and perspicacious you are and what was it all about. I may happily call this game over now. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I declare the match between knowledgeminer and Lucas Kell over in the 15th round.

The winner is :… Everybody! Because everybody is entitled to feel harassed because of the subjectivity in feelings. That a person feels harassed don’t mean that any actions need to be taken or any rules have been broken.

Thank you all for a good fight and God bless James! See you next week !

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It’s a matter of perspective. To the lion, it’s playing. To the gazelle, it’s dying. To you it was sexual harassment. To me, it was illustrating the potential for asymmetrical player-player interaction and how one person’s “play” is another person’s “harassment”.

There are at least two aspects to this discussion. One is the question of whether EVE is a PVP game. The gazelle would say no. The lion would say yes. There is also the question of whether it should be, and I find it very telling that people who consider themselves lions are, at the same time, declaring themselves victims of the gazelle’s “incorrect” assumption about what the game is.

The lion abuses the gazelle by objectifying it. The gazelle abuses the lion by denying and/or invalidating that objectification. Who is right and who is wrong?

Hey, just so we’re clear on this: I’m just sticking to the narrative in this thread. I’ve started the “harrassement” before you did and thought you picked up on it, so I played along.

Indeed, but the gazelle says no because it’s a gazelle, not because it has a choice. In fact and for a reason yet unknown to me, our “gazelles” seem to be living with a reduced set of choices by default.

The ones representing actual game mechanics and defending its design. This is not hard to understand. Why would you even need to ask?

Maybe I’m wrong on this, but your whole point appears to me to be built upon the “carebear’s delusion”, which is treating EVE and MMOs generally as if they were a second life they can escape into. Their characters are an extension of themselves and they project this belief onto everyone else. They don’t seperate the player from his figure. This is not only not a healthy perspective on computer games and life in general, it’s also disrespecting perspective of the game itself.

For an interesting reason we never see such people become mighty pirate leaders, running big corps in highsec or owning sov in nullsec. Never. Not once. Not one of those who complain about the game have ever been in any position that matters. They’re all gazelles and completely void of any higher meaning or purpose in this game.

But maybe I misunderstand you. Maybe another angle is better: CCP are the ones who are right. What the players think doesn’t matter. In this sense, the players who are right are also the ones who stick closest to game design and its mechanics, because that’s how the game works.

CCP has spent the last years changing the game not towards carebears in general, but towards whales who also belong to the species “carebears”. You know whales. The cash cow of the industry! CCP did all this crap in the last years, because whales bring money. Whales aren’t smart. It’s easier to make money off of people who don’t think too much about things. Thinking about spending money equals saving money. CCP has spent years making their numbers look better so their investors can get a better deal.

NOW that the whole thing is settled and done, we’re seeing CCP slowly backtracking on what they did and pushing PvP again. Here we can also see that the ones who stuck to the game’s design being the ones who are closest to being “right”.

Even CCP disagree with the gazelles. CCP never agreed with them, they simply wanted their money. What we think doesn’t matter at all, but as you ask who is more “right” or “wrong”, I only need to point at CCP’s behaviour to show which answer is more likely the correct one!

If I needed to summarize the last years and the current development, i’d say: CCP abused the whales to get their money and now they’re slowly going back to how it’s meant to be, because they’re not anymore in a position where it’s required to attract money at all costs. The game is stagnating because there are too many whales and stagnation means death of the game, as evidenced by years of increased boredom overall and negative PCU trend. The only ones who weren’t bored were the ones who contributed to the stagnation in the first place: The Lions are bored and leaving the game, because the ones who the game was catered to in the last years, the Gazelles, prefer a boring life of stagnation and “Second Life”. The Gazelles wish to be left alone when they’re drinking at the pond.

CCP has spent years changing the game towards gazelles and they’ll spend another few years going back. The last weeks and months are evidencing that this game is not going into the carebears’ direction. Their money is not needed anymore. The “herd” needs to be “culled”. CCP apparently is now in a state where “pissing them off” is fine, despite them being their cash cows for literally years. I say that’s a good thing!

“Black Out”, “Trick or Treat”, “Kicking over Castles” : Gazelles are food for Lions.

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I’m not sure why would you need an answer to that question. EvE is a lot of things, a PvP game too, but not just.

If you need a more precise answer for some reason that escapes me, you would need to provide a widely accepted definition of what a PvP game is first, then we could analyse whether EvE meets the requirements of that definition or not. Otherwise, we could be arguing about it all day and not realise that we’re simply talking about a term that has a different meaning for each of us…

FWIW, this is how CCP describe their game themselves:

EVE Online is essentially a PvP (Player versus Player) game at its core.

What? None of them gets to decide that. You don’t get to decide what a game is depending on how you want to play it…

Huh? Who has ever done that? Pointing out when someone is making a wrong assumption, which I often do myself, does not equate to declaring oneself a victim of that.

The only “victim” of someone making a wrong assumption is the one making the wrong assumption himself. It’s he who is going to suffer the consequences of his assumptions not matching reality…

Sorry, but this just doesn’t make sense. Playing the game as intended, be it as lion or as gazelle, does not equate to either of them “abusing” the other. As long as they don’t break any game rules, they’re both “right”, whatever that means.

A gazelle will violently resist a lion’s aggression. It is not that the gazelle acts within a more limited set of choices. It is that from its perspective, the right choice is not to fight, but to run. To the gazelle, running IS the game.
The lion attempts to assert that the gazelle is food.
By running, the gazelle asserts otherwise.
Maybe who is right is not an objective fact, but the outcome of one of them successfully imposing his “delusion” on the other.

Why would you need to ask why I need to ask? The answer is that it is YOU who is operating within a more limited set of choices. You can’t or won’t fathom the possibility that two truths can both be true.

This is literally an appeal to authority. But authority is only authority if it can maintain sovereignty over its creation. And you are making a tautological argument: CCP is right because I say so. I am right because CCP says so.

It is incoherent with the philosophy you are espousing about PVP and carebear acceptance. On the one hand, carebears can be played with however PVPers want, but on the other hand, carebears cannot play with EVE Online however they want. By your own criterion, EVE Online is whatever kind of game a player can make it be, just as a miner is whatever kind of object a PVPer can make him/her into.

Are you trying to tell me you enjoyed it?

Every game is a PVP game, because I am always playing against myself.
Change my mind. LOL

plays withhimself

You really can’t have both at the same time. Either they’re running, or they’re violent. They can’t run violently and I’m not sure that’s even a thing.

You’re being delusional. If you can’t accept reality as it is, even when it’s right in front of your eyes, then there is no point in talking about this. You’ll just end up as the old man who keeps yelling at clouds. You can’t take your broken perception of reality and superimpose it onto everyone else. That’s not how this works.

You’re the one who needs to learn accepting reality, not the other way round. The people who are playing by the rules, who demand that everyone accepts and plays by those rules, can not be the delusional part here. They simply want everyone to accept and play by the rules. You even trying to turn this into a point is nothing short of nuts.

At this point I’m convinced you’re not actually capable of properly discussing this. You’re really detached from the real world, mate. I am not appealing to authority. It’s their game. They make the rules. They decide what’s happening. You don’t want to accept what’s happening and thus artificially try to create the need for a conversation about it. It is not me who is right. CCP is right. It’s their game.

What they’re doing is showing what they want to happen. What the players think doesn’t matter. You were the one who started with “right” and “wrong”, not me. Do you even know? No, you probably don’t.

Again, find back into reality. Reality is that the game has rules. Reality is that the carebears refuse to accept these rules and, out of their delusion, believe that they have a right to stay outside of them. They treat a game like it’s their second, better life. That’s nuts. Absolutely unhealthy. They also believe that it’s okay to hate onto those who play by the rules. They furthermore believe that everyone who isn’t like them automatically must be a bad person.

There’s many who further believe that everyone ever only does one single thing and that play styles called PvP and PvE exist. They believe that “not wanting to get blown up” is a so called playstyle. They’re completely and hopelessly detached from reality, no matter how anyone wants to spin it.

The only ones who fail to recognize it are the very people who are living in their delusion. I’m sorry, but I refuse to spend time with delusional people, because that’s an exercise in futility. Mental illness is no joke.

You’re bonkers. Not right in the head. Get a life and seek medical treatment. Bye.

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Many of us so that could be considered by how we play to be carebears, we manage to play how we want just fine. Because we’ve accepted and adapted to that oft quoted cornerstone of Eve that means somebody can, and will, feck up your day, anywhere, anytime, for any or no reason at all.

Carebear is an attitude, not a playstyle; the solution is simple, accept, adapt and overcome and don’t be a carebear.

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You’re silly. Of course what the players think matters. Of course CCP isn’t trying to make the game happen in a certain way, except to a limited extent. Otherwise they could just program the game to play itself. They like to describe the events in EVE as “emergent” and I have heard EVE described by a certain CCP employee as “interactive storytelling”.

You are only accepting half of the reality, maybe even less.

Thank you for playing along. I hope you have a nice day. :kissing_heart:

He should read my bio! :rofl:

I don’t see this as harassment. If I find a pilot, who for one reason or another annoys me I will go to every length possible to make their life a living hell in EVE until they quit. And that is my right.

I think you just made the argument for why there should be a policy…

Probably