It should not be possible to avoid ship loss in combat by storing your ship in a bowhead

[Lord_Kalus]

@Scipio_Artelius

Not much I can do other than let you know, which I’ve done.

I appreciate the heads up I guess.

[Algathas]

@Archer_en_Tilavine

As previously discussed, going suspect/criminal should only happen via actions DIRECTLY performed by you

Ah but thats where you are wrong. Not anyone can randomly dock in your bowhead. You took action to allow the tackled war target to dock in it. Thus you directly took action and your ship is now no longer considered “neutral” in the fight.

[Scipio_Artelius]

@Lord_Kalus

I appreciate the heads up I guess

Maybe. We’ll see.

[Archer_en_Tilavine]

This is half true if you set your safety yellow . It’s still not a direct action, but something you had to explicitly permit via yellow safety.

Still, I think scram restriction is more sensible (and consistent with existing game mechanics) than Bowhead going yellow. Mothership use in HS, esp Orcas in mining fleets, would be far less useful if motherships went yellow under these circumstances. I would imagine the community would favor the former over the latter as well given those two options.

[Scipio_Artelius]

@Algathas

Really the only “exploity” thing about it is that you can’t attack the bowhead without concord getting involved. If they are tackled wartargets and put their ship in a neutral ship, then the neutral ship becoming a legal target seems fair to me as the ship has clearly cast aside their neutrality.

This is exploity in itself, even in a mining fleet not engaged in combat. Orcas that open their fleet hangar to take ore and provide capacity for fleet members (which happens regularly), would suddenly become easily killable.

Would be a new awox mechanic to loot a yellow NPC wreck, or just warp to the fleet already suspect, point with a neutral alt, then stow in the orca to send it suspect. Bring in the fleet and kill it.

The cries would be pretty quick if this came into the game.

[Algathas]

@Archer_en_Tilavine

Still, I think scram restriction is more sensible (and consistent with existing game mechanics) than Bowhead going yellow

I see the scram restriction idea as less consistent than normal. As for the orca/mothership thing, well just like war combat targets should cause the “mothership” to go suspect, why would it be any different for tackled miners? Also it still allows people to reship, just if you do then the “mothership” is no longer neutral. The police don’t stop you from doing it, they just look the other way from protecting the mothership that clearly has an interest in the war.

[Algathas]

@Scipio_Artelius

new awox mechanic

This is easy to avoid though. They could have an option on the hangar to not allow suspects to dock in your hangar if safety is set green or something, so no orca would have a problem and be awoxed. They would have to allow a suspect or person in a war to dock.

[Archer_en_Tilavine]

The Mothership should not go suspect due to the action of another individual in fleet. This is highly exploitable and against the notion that you should only go suspect/criminal due to your own actions (killrights being your own actions - flag invokable at a later time). Inability to deposit/swap ships due to scram would be on par with inability to tether/dock at Upwell POSes. It also only affects combatants and not the mothership - why should it affect the mothership? In mixed fleet settings, the mothership is a bystander. At worst the mothership provides the combatant with a new ship (existing behavior), and with the scram change the combatant and still get a new ship under certain, not unreasonable conditions. The scram change is far less extreme and doesn’t inhibit use of motherships, it just makes use of motherships less exploitable.

@Algathas

They could have an option on the hangar to not allow suspects to dock in your hangar if safety is set green or something, so no orca would have a problem and be awoxed.

added complexity is a big no-no

[Salt_Foambreaker]

@Archer_en_Tilavine

99% of EVE Community

Another care bear that thinks everyone agrees with him

[Algathas]

@Archer_en_Tilavine

added complexity is a big no-no

Roflmao… that is already down the toilet with highsec and concord… and it is simple, a green safety mothership not allowing suspects to dock by default. No-one can “exploit” it without the orca owner explicitly knowing this is going to happen.

[Archer_en_Tilavine]

I want to be clear that I don’t necessarily think that neutral Bowheads should disappear from HS battles. I do think that they should still be a thing, but within reason. Scram restriction on combatants is not asking for much and is a strict improvement on the situation. It might not be 100% but 50% is better than 0%. It is an iterative improvement.

[Algathas]

@Archer_en_Tilavine

The Mothership should not go suspect due to the action of another individual in fleet.

The mothership took action to allow war fleet members and/or suspects to dock, so it is not through the action of ANOTHER, they themselves are taking action to allow it.

[Scipio_Artelius]

@Algathas

This is easy to avoid though.

I get where you are coming from. On the other hand, what is fundamentally wrong with someone not involved in combat, storing a ship in a bay as a defensive tactic to avoid loss?

If someone has an aggression timer, then they are involved in combat and shouldn’t be able to store their ship. But if they aren’t involved in combat, why do we need CCP to stop them?

[Cheseburg]

@Scipio_Artelius

@Lord_Kalus

You must be projecting because there is none here

Nah, I’m cool with what others want to do. Just reading your posts across a few threads I’ve read, they come across consistently with a tone of underlying butthurt. Maybe you aren’t, but your writing kind of reads that way.

@Lord_Kalus

One of these things sounds exploity though

Yeah it kind of does, but if someone isn’t in the fight (ie. no aggression timer), then that doesn’t seem so exploity. Seems like a good defensive option.

Once you start shooting and have a timer, I totally agree, but the game already works like that. No change is needed in that case.

you have no argument. neutral logi was lame so it got removed. neural bowhead is just as bad, if not worse.

using neutral alts to save most of your 50 billion isk pvp fleet is broken as hell.

[Scipio_Artelius]

@Cheseburg

you have no argument.

I just have an opinion. Not really trying the convince anyone else, however you also came here making a thread to cry about not getting kills because you got outplayed. So your argument isn’t all that strong.

[Algathas]

@Scipio_Artelius

But if they aren’t involved in combat

But they are. They were tackled by a wartarget, so that makes them “involved” already.

This is why the mothership should also be involved. So you are saying … oh the police looks the other way for tackling the ship, but then once that ship docks in a “neutral” ship the police protects them and the “neutral” ship? Hmm doesn’t make sense whatsoever.

[Cheseburg]

@Scipio_Artelius

@Cheseburg

you have no argument.

I just have an opinion. Not really trying the convince anyone else, however you also came here making a thread to cry about not getting kills because you got outplayed. So your argument isn’t all that strong.

oh, losing is classed as outplaying now. i get ya.

[Wanda_Fayne]

@Cheseburg

if you’re being warp scrambled you shouldn’t be able to dock in another ship

simple

and for disclosure I may have used this mechanic too

[Scipio_Artelius]

@Algathas

They were tackled by a wartarget, so that makes them “involved” already.

Not mechanically. Being a legal target doesn’t make someone involved. We see that in lots of threads that still complain about wardecs.

If this was the other way around and PIRAT tackled a war target, who is a defender in a war, and then that person used this same tactic to defend themself because they were out numbered, I think you’d find a lot of the community in favour of that being allowed.

There’s a lot of bias in these discussions that is sometimes hard to put aside.

[Archer_en_Tilavine]

IIRC you can’t deposit/swap in the mothership if a weapons timer is active either, so in combination with a scram I think that is sufficient - no need for mothership to go yellow. Non-scrammed non-aggressive combatants SHOULD be able to deposit/swap WITHOUT penalizing the mothership. And having conditions like “well mothership only goes yellow if the weapons timer was active…” only adds additional complexity to your proposal that there be restrictions on whether you permit fleetmates that would make you go yellow to utilize your facilities…