I sure had a lot of concerns regarding the future of T3C HKs, but lately I’ve had no time to keep up with the Focus Group logs and official updates so I can’t really judge how are things going right now. Just randomly hopped into this thread to finally ask you not to rush things and take your time. T3Cs are one of the most interesting ships in the game and I hope you understand that postponing the update for some time will hurt much less rather than releasing a poorly thought patch.
The active tank bonus for the covert subsystems is absolutely ridiculous at 7.5% per level. That’s the highest possible bonus for subcaps other than T3Cs with the active tank subsystems and Marauders with Bastion, which is insane.
The whole point of the cloak is having less tank, right? … yet an armor T3C fit with a covert cloak can rep just as hard as a Deimos. So where, exactly, is the trade-off for being able to fit the covert cloak?
Of course, the 10% per level bonus for the active tank subsystem is just as crazy, especially when the hull has bonuses for overheating. One of the biggest complaints about T3Cs before was that they had too much passive/buffer tank. All you did was replace that with too much active tank.
And when you compare them to HACs, there’s no reason to not use T3Cs – unless you’re short on ISK, but then you wouldn’t be using 200m hulls regardless. You’d just drop down to T1 hulls. So when a Proteus gets better damage bonuses, better tank bonuses, a better slot layout, and better overall attributes, what reason does anyone have for using a Deimos?
You were very careful about holding T3Cs back so that they don’t overtake Logistics Cruisers or Recon Ships, but you seemingly don’t care about them overtaking HACs. Why is that?
Are HACs getting looked at in the immediate future?
I think the best way to describe the T3 ships is they basically play their own game.
One of the suggestion on the other forum for T3Cs was to make these ships designed for wormholes and exploration, while they are able adapt to different roles.
By the way @CCP_Fozzie if these won’t be as good at exploration as they should, will we get T1 and T2 exploration cruisers?
I often feel like if it weren’t for their tie to wormholes having a purpose, these would be repeal without replace. They have been a forever problem with regard to balance and purpose across various ship classes, but with a lot more work involved. The most complicated ship to balance in the game.
Overall, I am personally quite happy with the proposals, and the intention to monitor and adapt if things look too far out of balance.
This is quite a change, to these ships, a reimaging of roles and abilities rather than a nerf, they should create quite a bit of interest, and some disappointments, but those will have to look at things as a new opportunity, to find what roles will work for them now.
I have only one disappointment, the Tengu has had its warp speed removed and placed into the interdiction sub, where the proteus retained it during the move.
The Tengu is widely used outside of null as a PVE ship, and the Warp bonus is of great importance in HS and LS long distance exploration and as a pocket heavy transport. We are losing a massive amount of buffer, but it was still Viable, but lose the warp speed, and that’s no longer the case.
Possibly I need to take my own advice and find another ship, but such a shame when I was willing and able to work around the introduced buffer downsides.
I apologize in advance for the double post, replying to both you and CCP Fozzie. Also I had to use imgur because the forum says I’m to new to upload images.
Below I have screen-capped a fairly standard fleet proteus for WHs. I think the main difference between it and null fleet proteuses (protii?) is null alliances use a different propulsion subsystem which gives it a more flaired tail, which personally I think looks even better. Underneath that is an image of the proteus with the closest visually equivalent subsystems after the rework. The subsystems are completely different from what is commonly considered the classic proteus, with the beautiful space motorcycle look.
If you change any of the subsystem models the most important one is moving the “hammerhead” front to the Augmented Fusion Reactor Core.
In it’s current state the classic proteus look will only exist if you’re using some strange cloaky drone boat fit. I look forward to new fitting innovations that will come with the future T3C changes, but perhaps we can let these new fits have new looks while maintaining the current image many pilots have come to know and love.
I apologize in advance for the double post, replying to both you and White Orchid. Also I had to use imgur because the forum says I’m to new to upload images.
Below I have screen-capped a fairly standard fleet proteus for WHs. I think the main difference between it and null fleet proteuses (protii?) is null alliances use a different propulsion subsystem which gives it a more flaired tail, which personally I think looks even better. Underneath that is an image of the proteus with the closest visually equivalent subsystems after the rework. The subsystems are completely different from what is commonly considered the classic proteus, with the beautiful space motorcycle look.
If you change any of the subsystem models the most important one is moving the “hammerhead” front to the Augmented Fusion Reactor Core.
In it’s current state the classic proteus look will only exist if you’re using some strange cloaky drone boat fit. I look forward to new fitting innovations that will come with the future T3C changes, but perhaps we can let these new fits have new looks while maintaining the current image many pilots have come to know and love.
Currently on SISI the Electronic Efficiency Gate subsystem has the model for the Obfuscation Manifold subsystem on TQ
On SISI the Obfuscation Manifold subsystem has the model for the CPU Efficiency Gate subsystem on TQ
On SISI the Augmented Graviton Reactor subsystem has the model for the Dissolution Sequencer subsystem on TQ
To avoid confusion I would suggest at the very least the Obfuscation Manifold needs to keep the same model as it has on TQ.
That the Electronic Efficiency Gate should get the Dissolution Sequencer model as the bonus’s for these are pretty much the same (they will do the same job on our fits)
And that the Augmented Graviton Reactor get the CPU Efficiency Gate model (I think thats probably the least used on TQ?)
Please consider keeping missile subsystem as is in example to me at least it redistribute mass a lot better it offset heavy ship front with slim middle and again somewhat exaggerated back so ship avoid looking like toothpick and generally unappealing and weakish.
Missile hard points look really amazing on it, as well as it reminds me of some kind of ballast tanks and since space ship submarines nothing further need to be said it only need to be respected.
Lastly but “worstly” both tank subs should have that slick combat ready look to it like augmented durability have nothing sticks out all is tucked and behind armor plates so that tumor of a sub ie camel hump move that sub from adaptive defense to covert reconfiguration because it needs more space for advanced equipment and …whatever just remove it from tank subs.
Even better delete it from all servers and logs last remaining data copy of it toss in nuclear testing area nuke it for 5 years hard than if any atom of it remained launch it to sun and when it gets there destroy the sun just to be sure.
Taken from old forums now locked thread those changes need to happen for loki to loose that deformed sub that simply do not fit due to its size and shape please implement and consider missile sub as valid it is simply better.
It would have been nice to do away with the skillpoint loss. This feels so arbitrary and punitive for no reason. If the ship is too strong without this penalty, then the ship’s power should be re-evaluated.
For the rest, I have to say that this rebalance is too complex for most people to give a truly valuable opinion on, which in itself is a sign that the opportunity to do away with some of the T3C complexity was missed.
For instance, the 3 tengu defensive provide:
+1H +3M OR +2M +2L OR +3M + 1L
Well then what they really provide is :
+1H +1M OR +2L OR +1M +1L, AND +2M for all of them.
These two med slots could be included in the base hull, giving more clarity as to what the subsystems are actually providing.
I am also a bit dissapointed that the Loki is the only one getting a dual tanking. Why? The ECMgu could also use an armor tank for instance, as would lots of creative Proteus and Legion fits. It wouldn’t be unbalanced, as the current slot layout would keep these bonuses in check anyway…
I also hope that these things will be a bit less unkillable in high-sec. Right now it is very hard to kill a Proteus under 60 seconds before it can be safely ejected into a neutral bowhead at the ends of its weapon timer, under neutral reps.
However, props to you guys for reducing the cost of the probe launcher in the base hull, and for trying to balance this ship around overheating. I think that ultimately this overheating bonus will, once mastered, turn out to be even more OP than the current situation for fleet doctrines, but it’s very nice to see some creativity in the bonuses.
I thought the lesson had been learnt about ‘balancing by cost’ as being a bad idea with Supers & Titans already. Or was it learnt so long ago that it’s been forgotten.
Over the past year or so ive seen ccp try to improve the visuals of all the ships in the game. The purposed changes to the tengu are a running jump off a cliff backwards.
The offensive subsystem no longer effects the “wings” there was no need to do this at all. out of the 4 visuals for the “wings” you choose to keep the cloaking upward wings that jsut dosnt fit with the whole caldari line up where they have allways been a downward slope.
The propultion subsustem again you changes the visuals rather then keep the only ones and imo again choose to keep the uglyest looking choice of prop systems visuals the old nullification subsystem rather then get rid of it you changed it to the fuel cat system the most popular one.
The core sub system again its changeing the front visual rather then the top as the used to which makes in confuseing again as you chose to keep the uglyest subsys visual rather then get rid of it.
Defensive subsystem again wtaf this would have made more sense changeing the front. why is the claky sybsystem what used to be the cap regen subsystem. and why again keep the worst looking visual.
In short the subsystems are representing the wrong parts of the ship the offensive should be the wings and inline with the old bonus lineup. The core should represend the snip “top” of the ships and match up with the old subsystem bonuses. The defensive should Move to the front and replace what was the electronics.
I do not understand why it was done like this. The standard pvp pve fits looked amazing if anything it was the old ecm and cloak subsystem that did not at all fit with caldari desings and looks ugly as sin. Setting up a tengu for pve pvp on the test server churns out a garbage looking ship and dose not fit with the race you are ment to be inproving the visuals right? not taking a steaming dump on proiably the more popular ship setup/design.
Also tengu not enoguh low slots most t2 caldari cruisers or about have 4 or more lows i could use 3 at a stretch i understood 2 with the nullification bonus but seriously youve nerfd the tank and people will allways mob a solo tech 3 even with the current oversized xlsb cap stable they where still killable by 2 tornados because of the tiny buffer. It seems that you are being a bit heavy handed with the tengu “rebalance”.
Atleast fix the visuals and which sub system the represend dont make my and a large protion of eves fav ratting ship look like trash. i dont want to play an ungly game this is our exscape from reality if its not pleaseing to they eye people will go ealse where.
I like the changes I’ve seen on SiSi so far. I think the rig slots in the fitting window on all T3s should be a different color indicating they can be swapped out. Maybe gray? orange? a special sound effect?
After a 4 year wait this answer is rather disenchanting. PVE fitted these ships are comparable to what you’d see in HS explo as is. Run pve fits against the typical gila/ishtar fits, they’re not overpwered in this context. (Stratios not considered as it’s subpar)
Methinks it’s time for T1/T2 racial explorers, and to help keep them out of the nullbear usage idea, make them unable to use thermodynamics.
