new players who go right to nullsec are not new players- and when they genuinely are because they literally got pulled into a pvp area by big alliances, new players who miss local are not new players given that new players are actually not used to the meta of eve and losing something they are not used to using is inconsequential. unless they got hooked on the teat of those chat reading programs which should simply be banned to create some balance in nullsec.
No, not really. Simply put this kind of software checks your inmputs before sending them to the game server. It should not affect any of the âinner gutsâ of the game itself.
Also itâs laughable to rely on human detection. Literally if that was CCPs main mode of operation theyâd be a laughingstock for cheaters.
And again fighting cheaters by nerfing legit playstyles is not acceptable.
Not when i started playing 
Ahh tis you but honestly who cares, you still have nothing of value to say - Just another Mark Marconi but less interesting.
Yes this is an alt, I started posting with it many years ago due to belonging to an alliance that frowned upon line members posting, which btw is something I believe Goons should bring back.
Must be a chore remembering people you never actually interacted with a year after you never interacted with them.
Iâd suggest you, get a life - This one just isnât working for you.
Yeah i read it the same way but some people just find it hard believing, not everyone is a cheat.
You honestly want to see 99.999% of your alliance banned for using 3rd party programs to aid in daily activities?
*Canât ban the programs without getting rid of those who use them, that would be like saying botting is against the rules but not banning the players who use them to gain benefit. CCP did give the tools out to create the chat scrapers in the first place, who do you ban there?
You should run for CSM. 1, you couldnât be any worse than some weâve had over the years. 2, setting out with an agenda that includes getting the biggest group in the game banned might get you votes.
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oh i like that
Only the stuff that recuires manual inputs like taco or the automated stuff like dotlan as well? Take down evepraisal? Ban seat?
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But screen capturing is not involved - someone has to put the intel into the channel unlike dotlan so the intel you get from this is only as good as the people make it themselves.
What Taco really does is presenting the player collected data in a manner thats suitable to the size of groups that use this kind of software.
The better quality and range of intel is thanks to the number of people contributing.
Dotlan is free intel even for solo players - so wich one is the more cheaty one? Do you realise how hypocritical it is to complain about one but not the other?
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Borbarad Naglfar thanks for your more considered response
dotlan reads public information, freely made available by ccp, from the servers mate i am not aware of dotlan doing automatic screen capturing or log reading directly from a userâs computer which provides alerts to people when there are people in their safe space that so many feel entitled to. in dotlan if there is some pardon my ignorance but i find it hard to believe that a website can do that.
i donât know how taco works never tried it, but if it is not automatically reading logs that could only be generated from a logged in client on that clientâs computer like near2 does that doesnât sound too bad i guess? and probably impossible to police as i am sure it would only be slightly harder to do the same thing or similar on a discord server as an intel channel - albeit automatically less contributors as literally every alliance (afaict) struggles to get people into out of game communication platforms. if it is automatic reading game client logs for in game intel and local channels like near2 does tho that is definately crossing a boundary that should be firmly established.
no i donât find it hypocritical to complain about an automatic alarm generating program which phrases private data uniquely read from a client PC, most probably with minor tweaks capable of reading or processing other information like local count, that allows people to literally go do something else and come back in time to get their â â â â to safety while not complaining about publicly available resources that literally everyone has access to. you see the core problem is how available are things to the public and what kind of game does CCP want? do they want something where everyone can make enough money to buy plex no matter how high plex prices get and never pay a cent to play, while the super rich get super richer, which of course raises a whole new set of questions about how to keep lights on, or do they want to give everyone a fair go?
And Taco reads private information, provided by players, inserted into chat mannually so it could be read by the software.
There is no screen capturing, thus no automated collection of data, thus itâs not cheating.
For a wormhole group it is viable to sit in one comms channel together. For large groups it is not, thus Taco. Just like for small groups it is not viable to collect intel on a scale thet allows to find content, thus Dotlan.
If you dislike the existence of large groups youâre playing the wrong game.
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well lets not try putting words into my mouth again Borbarad Naglfar, it didnât work for you last time it wonât this time:
if something enables you to have intel spoonfed to you based on in game reporting which is not publicly available information then it is wrong.
doubly so if that can also report/alarm new entrances into local without player input at all.
simple.
but i would argue the reading of in game logs itself by a program is a form of automatic collection of client data. very few users would be able to just use in game intel windows, otherwise they would be doing that instead of bothering with third party programs.
the counterplay to intel reporting would be to allow anyone to join intel channels so hostiles can see whats being reported too - this counterplay doesnât exist without spies, which not everyone can have.
I thought I found whatâs wrong with EVE in this thread.
Now I know I can also find whatâs wrong with 2019.
So weâd have to ban teamspeak or your corp mates could shout at you to go dock your mining barge.
Itâs nothing more than a way to present the data collected by alliance players in a useable manner, suited to the amount of data that is being collected.
If that is cheating then so is Dotlan and we can all go find content by stumbling into each other at random.
it does NOT
we all know that people have trouble getting in on out of game comms i think i already touched on that and how every alliance struggles to get people intregrated. i think we both are smart enough to know that publicly available information available by the servers is not the same thing as a program that automatically pulls log data, not all of which may be reported from another player, and triggers an alarm without people being on out of game communications - which would be frankly impossible for someone to be able to do if they are afk and working for example because being glued to a comms headset means youâll hear stuff from everyone 
and not be able to effectively âafk playâ.
near2 is open source, it is not impossible for a clever person to modify aspects of it to do automated reporting without player input using just cloaked eyes on a gate in a system leading into a pocket. you also cannot guarntee intel channels are not being added to by bots explicitly designed to report intel either.
i think you are conveniently clutching at your last remaining straws, which have already been addressed, and failing, come up with new points please not the same points written in a slightly different way.
Itâs CCPs job to implement propper cheat detection - this has nothing at all to do with this subject.
Also i donât see any evidence for there being bots posting intel. Shurely not in our own and as shown by kills happening all the time i donât feel like itâs verry common in large alliances.
If you have reason for those accusations you should forward them to CCPs security team but banning this would (just like the supposed âBO against Botersâ nonsense) harm more legit players than cheaters.
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good points, thank you for new content. hereâs the thing, while youâre right that kills are happening all the time, most of the time to get a kill there is a lot involved and without spies, it requires a person to jump in, look for where the krabs were at last (an imperfect art), leave, wait some time, come back and warp directly to the krabbers spot because so many krabs are all connected by these programs which exploit private client data to generate alarms, letting someone know who is otherwise afk that there is activity. if krab doesnât return, thereâs no kills. and this method is the only one available to small groups (note even big alliances have small groups)
the automated, âroboticâ efficiency of these programs are unfortunately something that a person manually checking system and then hoping that their warp speed is enough has no counter play to. sure there may be other options - severely nerf align time within sites or of certain ships (mining) and ensure thereâs no sneaky way of adjusting align time with a pulse of a prop mod like with caps for example.
blackout was good because it changed the balance. in a blackout environment an active, playing the game ratter had comparable warning that a hostile was in their space through intel channels which are being contributed by actual, active people who cannot set a program to automatically drag name of a player from a local chat to an intel channel and then drag the name of system from the top left to that intel box and hit the âenterâ key - look i am not a person who knows that much about botting but a tiny bit of imagination is a good thing given that if people can make bots that do everything else, they can make bots that drags names around and presses enter⌠this is the in game equivalent of criminal activity irl which can be only estimated with real world logic. we need to use the same estimations and rely on the fact that you cannot detect everything and common sense must be applied to the considerations, not just âi canât see it therefore it must not be happeningâ
now honestly, without npc kills or adm reporting, we would still have had no problems as hunters looking for targets in a blackout environment but remember that for many people it took a bit to get used to, hunting practices had to change, and the general boycott that adult babies who didnât like the meta change executed didnât help. that said without those things the balance is actually back into the krabs court (obviously not as badly as current meta with local) when you consider krabs shot themselves in the foot when blackout came around - less krabs who actually were at their computers meant every nullsec intel channel failed to pick up basic activity. it became a perpetuating problem unfortunately .
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Like shouting at you on comms in this context.
If noone posts there is no alarm.
I just wait for a hunter to come into my system
My best advice to get more small gang content is try finding a response gang of appropriate size and comp to engage and have a good fight instead of ganking ratters all the time.
Intel channels are by far not as relyable as you think they are and blackout made it only easyer to slip by. So theres nothing else one can do than having their own set of eyes on every in-gate. Even then there is no defence at all against loged off cloaky cynos in system.
Itâs literally free ganks on ratting ships and disencourages actual PVP from happening by how easy it is to escape after the deed is done. Purely a buff for whaling - nothing balanced or remotely useful about it.
This kind of content belongs into wormholes, but those are
according to CSM ExookiZ
Sov space should be about smashing capital armardas against each other - any update on Nullsec should adress sov warfare and structure creep. If CCP want to make more room for small gang content im all for it but they should do so in Lowsec and W-space.
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You mean like the automatic probe sweep in j-space? Honestly, I was pretty shocked when I found out people didnât know about that. (And, for those who donât know: when you first enter a system, youâll see your passive scan do a visual sweep across your screenâitâs actually sweeping in a circle around you, but you donât see the stuff behind your cameraâbefore the colored < > indicators show up in space. In wormholes, if you leave your probe scanner open, youâll see that whenever a new signature pops up on the probe scannerâeven if itâs filtered out, and even if you donât have probes out. And, of course, a new sig-ID appears on the probe scanner⌠but you might not notice the new WH right away if you donât have the existing signatures ignored or youâre showing anomalies.
So when a new WH pops up? That sweep alerts you. Itâs been almost a decade, so I donât remember 100%, but it might do that for new ships, even.
But automatically knowing when things arenât perfectly safe is bad, right wormholers?
So itâs just an SMOP ? Before going any further, could you please state your actual programming experience.
good advice; i mean, it would be anyway, in a perfect world where people donât deliberately constantly upship, batphone, engage in n+1, or simply helldunk or blueball constantly. i suspect in that same perfect world bots canât report intel.
whaling is also a game style choice for many people who intentionally want to attack a hostile empire in a campaign of pressure; and the reason there is no concord/sec standing loss/penalties at all in nullsec is because CCP wants people to be victims of whaling. they donât seem to share your vision of nullsec where supercaps are the only viable ship class. and this goes back to what kind of game do they want, and how will they pay for it? and you for that matter, because your industry wonât be anywhere near as successful with healthy margins if people who risk and lose ships every day to chase krabs around follow your advice.
also, let me tell you when i used to use near2 it was great, easily in excess of 95% of people caught, and severely overpowered. havnât tried taco yet but i am not about to let an exploit that is legal to use be used by others without using it myself.
but i must admit you are right that there is no âstoppingâ logged off cloaky cynos in system.
let me ask though, should these things really be stopped? whats the counterplay to people accumulating ridiculous wealth if they are? shouldnât the onus of responsibility be on the person making 100m+ per 20 minutes to have a cyno fitted (or now a cyno alt), to be networked into a group which can provide assistance, to be not shitfit?
and to be clear i am very much in favor of a larger shake of the snowglobe than what we have seen to date; low and highsec missions should have npc faction responses to apply additional pressure on runners, highsec traders should encounter randomised supply and demand chaos (allegedly new eden has its own economy outside of players, tell me why they are not manufacturing ship equipment themselves and selling to capsuleers?), wormholers should not have the ability to enjoy safe space that Arrendis highlights and should not be able to roll holes (and a change in the meta relatively often as they allegedly fight a civilization that can research new technologies without any time passing at all within their construct, if the lore is to be believed), and faction warfare should have npc navies invading each other and hunting and helping players in plex sites. frankly i have no chance in hell at ever winning a CSM because my platform is literally a war declaration on the meta and your wallets more generally, and thats simply not popular.
and look i am not blind to the weaknesses of the blackout approach, there should potentially be some form of balancing wether tis remove interdiction nullification, a notification on numbers of players in system still without local list (maybe turn the one in the eve map to a live count? that would be ideal to have to go to that extra effort of having map open to have intel), maybe even a login message when people log in directly in space. but one thing is for sure, doing one change in isolation that target one group (nullseccers) has only proven to make very sour grapes. and every âchaosâ thing has affected nullsec disproportionately above every other part of space and activity. which is a terribly short sighted approach.
also lets reiterate because you reiterated your comms example: it is far harder to stay on comms while playing a game than to have a program send out an alarm while playing a game. its far harder for people to keep track of everyone whoâs on comms and where they are than it is to have a program to automatically rip all the relevant data from your client resources and do it for you. noone on teamspeak is doing that. and good luck ratting/mining afk when thereâs the inevitable chatter causing you to put that headset down just for a moment. if you are one of those people that actually get on comms in the first placeâŚ
Hmm, depending on how busy I am in real life, I may actually do itâŚKidding LOL
Simply reiterating this accusation leads nowhere. They are not automatically extracting any data they are not supposed to.
If there is intel bots somewhere itâs CCPs job to ban them but it does not belong into this debate.
Itâs impossible for 500 people to be on one comms but for a small group i donât see an issue.
Itâs not harder to run one software than the other. Both make noises. Nothing stops small groups from using the same software or have comms where you can shout over multiple channels so there can be a quiet channel but people can still hear a warning.
All of this requires manual input by another player.
I am indeed and funny enough not even using Taco because intell is unrelyable annyways so i prefer siting in a quiet chanel so im not distracted while im doing a site
It does happen and if it doesnât itâs your turn to slip away and waste that blue balls time as much as possible.
Now imaginde CCP released a shiny new update for FW and maybe Wormhole-Sabilizers to proliferate more small content without infringing on Null empires ability to poliece their own space.
Would that not be far more likely to produce gud fites than the classic âpoke the beehiveâ method?
Or in general maybe not gank ratting ships but ask nicely in local if thats content you hunger for?
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Just canât get away from the ad-hominem can you?
You seem to care way to much about my kill board yet wonât post your own.
+1 reason: CCPlease bring back blackout to make this nullbear rage.
Oh, right, blackout was just a mild inconvenience for you, so it doesnât really matter. Then what are you so upset about?
Enough of this elitist nullbear trying to sound tough and play gatekeeper to the discussion.
It seems the real issue is that the game got harder and the nullbears didnât get their rewards boosted (again).
Would that have made you happier?
Too much stick not enough carrot?