Your segregated channel will be dead when people HAVE to talk to each other to make your grand scenario possible. Logi need to talk to everyone to tell them when reps are about o fail. Everyone need to talk to defensive support to tell them who is yellow/red boxing them to try to relieve some pressure. The FC has to talk to DPS and offensive support for target calling. All those people now NEED to share channel or talk in global for those order/request because their own group aren’t the one needing the info to be effective.

Allow me to translate this for you:

Feel free to amend your argument to include an actual argument.

The vast majority of my pvp is done in fleets. I live in sov null, and am actively involved in DRF fleets. If you thought about it for even a moment you’d see this doesn’t affect small gang at all. Small gang rarely has the capacity to (in the case of my linked post) exceed 40% of a ship’s buffer over a 5 second window. A fleet on the other hand…

They’re also boring as ■■■■ and need to go away.

Our alpha doctrines get bombed all the time. We rarely if ever lose ships to bombing runs because we just warp to a ping if we’re actually concerned about the incoming damage.

Yes, they’re a good one. Ironically, bombers always work in small squads/waves, exactly like I suggest fleet dps should work. If you’ve got frigates and dessies escorting your battleships, you’re again using the exact form of fleet pvp that I’m talking about - groups diverging and accomplishing objectives. The dessies are shooting entirely different targets.

Show me a doctrine that can beat excessive logistics, without resorting to alpha strikes. Just one. In any situation where logistics is significant, the ONLY way to beat them is to destroy a target before it gets reps. That’s boring and there’s no counter-play for the player that just got alpha’d. With logistics getting toned down in “some fashion”, there would be way better options than alpha strikes.

Sounds like TEST should improve it’s recruitment standards?

“This” was an answer to someone else, about people talking over each other in comms. The simple answer is to not sperg up comms.

The logistics group should be all working collectively, which means that the logistics FC knows when a target is breaking. The only logistics person speaking globally is the logistics FC, calling for support.

The DPS targets would all be broadcast on a squad basis. Squads of 10-15-20 players (extras for the sake of when some die) take their squad leader’s broadcast and go to town on it. They don’t need to talk at all (and should be reprimanded if they do). Your squad leaders should know enough about the game to intelligently select targets based on general objectives globally communicated by the fleet FC.

Your EWAR FC would be the one in the hardest spot… and this is certainly where the “grand scenario” needs some help. If it were possible for one to select a friendly (either by bracket or from the overview) and view the people yelllow/red boxing said friendly, it would make things way easier for them. They know who’s taking damage because people taking damage have broadcasted. EWAR would simply click the name (assuming such functionality existed) instead of locking the target, and then start plying their trade accordingly.

Another way to help prevent cross talk would be to have EWAR inside your squads rather than as a separate squad.

Imagine 20 pilots per squad, say 15 DPS ships and 5 EWAR ships of whatever flavour you prefer. Now you’ve got 20 people talking amongst each other. Easy to avoid cross-talk. You’re communicating with your “local” ewar as soon as you get boxed, so they can preemptively start assisting logistics.

That might sound like a lot of EWAR based on current meta, but in a situation where logistics were just a bandaid, you’d need a lot of EWAR to make up for it.

Even better, if logistics are capped at how much repping they can do, make it squads of 30. 20 dps, 5 ewar, 5 logistics. There’s no reason to have 70 logistics pilots communicating with each other when their impact is so limited.

Each squad operates as part of the fleet, but each squad operates under the leadership of a squad leader.


I’ve most definitely hijacked the OP’s thread, and directed the conversation away from the OP’s idea almost entirely. Making a thread which is more accurate to the topic now at-hand.

Exactly, my point is that this is already happening! You didn’t need to force or change anything to make it happen. It happened naturally to adapt to the meta. And I wont argue that alpha doctrines are boring, but so were drone assist slowcats and ishtars. But just like those doctrines, we will eventually move on there is no reason to force a change in one aspect of the game that will have far further reaching effects than just moving the meta along.

Alpha or pure dps until you can out damage or take out the enemy logistics there is no difference. Alpha just has the bonus of being far more effective way to take out enemy ships quickly before it turns into a slow grind of breaking reps. That’s why it’s currently the most efficient counter - not the only.
That’s a perfectly fine, and while you see it as a problem the vast majority of the player base do not or else you’d see a lot more people flooding here and on reddit demanding change.

But sure you want a non alpha doctrine that have been in use. We have T3C doctrines that exist to out maneuver the slower alpha doctrines and get under their guns as well T3D doctrines which exist to knock out logistics by jumping on top of and booshing logistic wings away. All very efficient at what they aim to do when properly piloted.

Read my original reply to you. I explained very specifically the flaws in your idea and elaborated further as to why it would have a further reaching negative impact on small and fleet warfare. Just because you didn’t actually read what I wrote is no reason for me to repeat myself with every post I make.

Except it’s not happening for the bulk of the fight. A bomber wing and appropriate counter occupy maybe 30-50 pilots, on a grid where there can easily be 600-1500. The root of the problem remains, with an example of what it could be right next to the problem.

Drone assist slowcats and ishtars moved away after CCP nerfed them. No player tactics change without CCP forcing that change by changing mechanics. For example one of the changes that reduced the prevalence of drone assist was the limit to the number of drones that could be assisted to the bunny.

Logi that doesn’t break will not break. They’re cap stable. If you can break them, you are right you can out-dps them. But you can’t break logistics in a large fleet with 75-100 logistics ships… it just doesn’t work. And even if you can, that simply boils down to N+1 tactics, which are again neither stimulating nor interesting from a strategic standpoint.

How often do you see players (and CCP) talking about mitigating headshots? How often do you see FCs flying in brick tanked T3Cs or Command Ships so that they can stay in the fight? I recall lots.

T3Cs got fixed. Now that’s not viable anymore. You might try and get under their guns, which is perfectly valid, but the moment a friendly gets webs on one of your T3Cs, you’re now trading very expensive ships for very inexpensive ships (assuming you can break their logistics, which you can’t with current T3Cs within the engagement profiles we’re talking about). There’s a reason our alpha doctrines include Bhaalgorns. Dual web and now they aren’t under the guns anymore, because they’re just a wreck floating through space.

Spearfishing fleets are entirely feasible, if you can pull it off. The downside is that they’re exceptionally difficult to pull off. But, I asked for an example and I got one.

Okay, lets go through that post then:

This all deals with local reps. So it’s entirely irrelevant.

This related to the OP, which is entirely irrelevant to what I said.

Sounds like a bonus to me. Most people don’t like flying logistics. I do it often because nobody else volunteers. Some people like flying logistics. By reducing the number of people who need to fly logistics, more people get to have fun.

Quite the opposite. Logistics, ewar, and piloting all contribute to pilot survival. With a DPS cap there’s no way to simply blap people. Logistics, with it’s nerfs, can keep up to the incoming damage for a short time. Ewar can mitigate incoming damage to extend that window. Friendly DPS ships applying relevant counter-force turn it into a 3-way balance.

Also known as volleying… the exact tactic that we both say we don’t like. If you can pick them off, you’re doing it before logistics can rep them.

On the contrary, this would accent the need to stay a safe distance quite a bit more. Logi can’t perma-rep each other now. They have to mitigate incoming damage as much as possible.

As I said… damage caps.

If you’re outnumbered 10 to 1, you deserve to lose for even taking that fight. Mechanics be damned at that point. This is not even close to a valid point.

YOU don’t like flying logistics, those who fly logi typically do it because they like it.
Your damage caps would literally kill the game. Literally everyone in my corp and alliance I have told of your “unique” idea have all said they’d just quit, just like they have for every other person who has ■■■■ this idea out into the forums as being the solution to all our problems. Despite the multitude of times it’s been debunked it keeps getting brought up.

You think local reps have nothing to do with this, yet the entire idea from the OP dealt with turning logistics into local rep bonuses which had everything to do with my talk of local reps damaging buffer, which in a large fight where you are up against high dps buffer trumps reps every time even if you do have incoming reps as that’s a few more cycles taken to kill you that cant be immediately turned on another in your fleet. Your idea of just applying a DR to reps has also been talked about to death and debunked many many times in the past. The DR will either be too much making logistics worthless in anything that isn’t a small gang fight, or too little have have no effect. Your damage cap is aboslutely moronic as you basically want to make certain weapon systems unusable outside of specific situations YOU feel they are okay in - which when it comes down to it, they have no other purpose other than what they are currently used for. Get citadel mechanics out of our head, they’re already unpopular and you basically want that put onto ships.

At this point, just go into the old forum archive and look for yourself. I’m done trying to tell you that it’s a bad idea and will cause more harm than good. What you see as not a bad thing is exactly what most people have ever complained about! The lack of variety in fleet comps, yet your very idea destroys the variety that does exist and turns all fights into a FFA slugfest where logistics are best ignored.

I think you missed my point entirely, i want to see more ships (sub-cap and capital alike) explode… not be saved by MORE logistics because you’re afraid to lose.

Edit: on a side note, I fly logistics… because i have to.

Get out of whatever ■■■■ corp/alliance you are in and join one that will let you fly whatever you want if you dislike flying logistics.

1 Like

Do you mean to tell me that you’ve never had your corp FCs say “okay guys we need more logistics, can we get more logistics?”

The very second they’ve said that, they’re having people re-ship into something they didn’t choose to fly. Sure some of the people re-shipping “don’t mind”, but it’s still not their first choice and consequently, less fun than it would have been.

It’s a sad fact that logistics is essential. It’s not optional, and honestly, while I don’t mind it, I don’t find it fun. First choice for me is either ewar or an interceptor - but sadly, there’s not a huge amount of call for either of those (yes there’s a certain need for interceptors, but there’s always an upper limit where you’re just becoming redundant).

It’s a game. If you are not happy with flying a specific ship, just log off. I can do it whenever I want and as often as I want. If you can’t, your leadership surely has power over you they should not have since they are limiting what you spend your entertainment time doing.

I enjoy the group of people I fly with. I love the space, I love the perks of living where I do. Not contributing to the group is self-defeating, akin to cutting one’s foot off to treat a stubbed toe.

“Just log off” is certainly an option (and in fact the directive from our leadership is “participate in the CTA or log off”). But what if I want to contribute to my alliance? What if I want to participate, just not in the way that is currently needed? I’d rather participate in a less desired way. It remains not a fun ship to fly, however fulfilling the objective is part of the fun.

Yes, I can just stay silent and wait for someone else to sigh and reship into logistics too, that is an option. but the key part of that is “sigh and reship into logistics”. You can’t tell me you don’t see that in your alliance, if it’s participating in sov warfare.

What we usually have to wait for when forming if we do have to wait at all is links, not logi.

Hah, other way around for us lol. 10 people offering to fly links, while the FCs constantly suggest “we could really use a few more logistics…”.

Not saying it matters to me personally (at least not enough to sway my opinion of logistics) but making them show up on kill mails would go along way toward getting the epeen players interested.

Because people have different preferences as well as skills. Most people in this game learn to fly doctrine dps ships first because they run parallel with the training they are undertaking to make isk. Some are suggested to train into logistics because it’s always welcome and it’s cross doctrine, meaning once they can fly a shield/armor logi depending on the comps used by your alliance they are set for all doctrines and can return to training what they want. Lastly, as Frosty pointed out, only specialized toons or those with little else to train will have turned to leadership/boosting skills. At this point many people have them, but some groups may still struggle to find link pilots in different time zones because of this.

Everyone likes killmails, not everyone is okay with just having the feeling of accomplishment of keeping your fleetmates alive. That’s more a matter of personality types than it is actual gameplay; if you’ve flown logi then you should know that it’s far more interactive than being an F1 monkey. Now imagine if CCP were to include logi on killmails. Say, if you repair a ship with a combat timer any kill he takes part in while that timer exists you will also appear on that killmail I guarantee you’d see more willing logi pilots because now everyone gets that shiny killmail. Same can be said for those piloting link ships, though not as much as they typically have whore guns and are just alts in most cases as I pointed out.

Sleipnirs are beasts… they make excellent dps doctrine ships. Baby-alpha fleets (with correspondingly higher mobility), high-dps AC fleets, with all the boosts and huge tanks you could want in a battlecruiser doctrine. They can give just about anything a good ass pounding.

They’ve got a long train, but they aren’t restricted to boosting roles - it’s required training for our alliance. As is logi doctrine ships.

Logistics is an F1,2,3 role. First broadcast that comes up, you lock and F1. Second broadcast that comes up, you lock and F2. When you see them not taking damage anymore, you unlock. It’s more than just being an F1 monkey… but only just.

I never said command ships aren’t used, I said the actual boosting skills aren’t all that commonly trained therefore may be something a fleet could find themselves waiting on. This was more an issue in years past more so than current thanks to skill injectors and a simple matter of time passing. And yes, Sleipnirs are very powerful.

The point was that subcap logistics are simply a step above F1 monkey in a basic fight. In high stress fights it’s far more than what you have laid out as many times logi will be assigned a squad to monitor in cases of heavy bomb usage so they are to cycle through and keep them up while watching for actual yellow/red box broadcasts and their own situation/range. This is also very much the case for a properly flown triage pilot - which still falls under logistics. They are expect to know when to drift in and out of triage and have proper cap management which makes this in no ways a mindless position in a fleet.

I like my alliance, and i will do what i need to in order to help, if that requires Logi, then i will fly logi. Helping others is actualy a great thing, should try it out.

Have to is kind of differs to want to, since helping others is your own will but not an obligation

I already fly most fleet as log. The rest are flown as support roles but vOv…

if it becomes near impossible to indefinitely sustain ships people will just opt to bring more dps to out alpha and remove your dps faster than you can remove theirs. removing logi from large fleets. at the same time your idea punishes small fleets where logi is no real issue.

so with this idea it just hurts logi with no added value

1 Like