They caved to bots. The new storms are more caving to bots, a very thinly veiled cloaking nerf.
It’s not theory crafting, it’s assuming a competent enemy. Just like you’re assuming perfect play on the part of the gank-y.
If the Stealth Bomber is competent they’ll point and scram you before popping the Cyno.
If someone pops a cyno off-grid they’re not terribly competent.
Overview won’t be much warning against someone decloaking. That’s the point of the cloak. At best that’s a contest of reflexes between the other guy clicking on you and you clicking warp, and “contest of speed” isn’t really a thing Eve, or Eve players, are known for.
DSCAN and Local are made worthless by the whole “AFK cloaky” thing.
On the former, no that’s laughable.
On the latter, last I checked lighting a cyno does’t break target locks or prevent other modules from cycling, so yeah you can tackle a target and light a Cyno. Depending on what you’re tackling it may not be very effective, but there’s plenty of big fat slow targets in Null so yeah, I’m not seeing why you think this is impossible.
The storms are more likely to harm most botting setups than help them because the bots won’t adapt well to “suddenly all my stats are different”
If anything these kind of dynamic mechanics hurt basic bot programs.
I’m sorry but I get so tired of the WH vs K space arguments, which are either simply misinformed or complete strawmen.
Um, dscan still works in WH space. So this is patently false. Most combat sites are anomolies, which do not require probing. So running anoms in WH space forces you to learn how to fly EXPECTING to get jumped as you never know when a gang of cloaky T3’s are just waiting for the right time.
Total misinformation. Yes there is a thing called hole control. And in the highest class wormholes, where anoms are run with caps, and you can collapse your connections with caps, hole control is more widely used.
However there are MANY MANY more lower class wormholes where it is much harder to utilize WH collapse, if not sometimes downright impossible.
Add to that, the “from WH with love” patch increased the number of random wormhole spawns, making it that much harder to control your system for ratting.
So is hole control technically a thing? yes. Is it as widespread as those using it as an argument want you to believe? Heck no.
In WH space, a cloaked player or small gang can find activity in system and jump them without warning.
And it is all relative, I did plenty of WH roaming in the past just dual boxing 2 cloaky T3’s a neut legion and a facestomping Proteus. Generally anything with an active tank would die.
So no I couldn’t cyno in friends, but it didn’t matter, the target still popped.
As a result the things I posted before about staying safe still hold true. The main difference is in K-space you at least know when you have to be more careful because you can actually see who is in local. In WH space you have to always assume you are being watched.
That’s just flat out wrong.
Fair, my bad. I’m used to larger systems where DSCAN is secondary except as a last second warning that someone is warping to your site uncloaked.
Of course it’s not perfect, but it does provide a layer of safety, and if you’re living in a WH system you post a scout and you can check your chain up at least a jump or two for other people living in the area. It’s not perfect, but it makes it a lot easier to know about and deal with incoming threats, and the mechanics of wormholes that allow for hole control usually limit the scale of what can come in and ruin your day.
Sure that doesn’t apply to all wormholes, but I also don’t seem to recall people living in those wormholes much. Though my wormhole experience is a few years out of date, so if that’s changed let me know.
DSCAN doesn’t show cloaked ships, and if the guy is sitting in system and in local 23/7 for days or weeks then Local isn’t giving you any useful info at that point.
That’s putting it lightly since the cyno brings you to a full stop.
But what you are really pointing out is an issue with cyno, the cyno should not be able to be started with any modules in cycle.
You are getting OFF TOPIC folks, this thread is about AFK CLOAKING.
Popping cynos can’t happen when cloaked or AFK
Strictly speaking it sets your speed to zero, but it doesn’t stop your ship. You can keep going quite a ways with one pulse from an AB, or what I would describe as “probably much too far” if you pulse a MWD.
Also the idea of a bomber shooting itself out of point range with a pulsed MWD has had me laughing for a good 30 seconds, so thanks for that
And at this point you are no longer discussing AFK cloaking so you’ve gone beyond the scope of this thread.
But even ignoring that and looking at active players as opposed to AFK ones, you are assuming that a cyno is the only way to call in reinforcements.
Login traps? Wormholes? I can speak from firsthand experience that you can most definitely jump reinforcements into hisec “from nowhere”. It’s harder if you’re docked vs. cloaked in space, but you can do it. (i.e. ambush on the undock on a kickout station, wormhole near the best mining spot, etc.)
Wormhole space is an entirely different ball of wax. AFK cloaking there, and I mean the kind of AFK cloaking used in nullsec used to spook easily scared locals, is meaningless. I agree with your assessment…but it’s irrelevant.
And lastly, let me raise two more points:
How exactly does the game engine/server determine that a player is AFK?
Given that there is no kind of penalty for going AFK in any other situation (other than getting scanned down/shot at if you’re in space and uncloaked) , why should being AFK while cloaked in space be any different?
I’m not, I pointed out several other ways in this thread. The difference between those ways and a cyno is that a Cyno brings people directly to your location instantly where as every other method (short of maybe log-off traps, sometimes) has a significant delay to when those forces can be detected and when they start shooting you.
Wormholes in that sort of position are rare and extremely situational and still offer more notice than a cyno. If someone fails to notice the massive spike, probably of flashy red players, in local and react in the ~20-30 seconds it takes them to warp to grid then even I don’t have much sympathy for them.
Login traps are similarly situational, and the effort required in setting them up successfully mitigates their impact and makes them feel less “cheap”. If someone manages to actually login-drop a small fleet on my site I’m not mad, I’m impressed.
If I had a good answer to this I’d have given it, but anything that meets a low enough bar to not interfere with other gameplay is also simple enough to be bypassed by a dipping bird pointed at someone’s left mouse button or a very simple shell script.
I’m not trying to say “here’s my awesome solution, get to it CCP”. This is a really messy problem, and not large enough to cause what I’ll called “significant game-play casualties” elsewhere.
Basically? Because being AFK has no meaningful impact on anyone else’s gameplay in any other situation. If you’re in space AFK and not cloaked then I can probe you down and “fix” the problem. If you’re AFK in a station then you’re in High or Low Sec and also not a threat or doing anything of note. At best I need one person watching the station to let me know if you undock, which at least means there’s a proportionate counter even if it’s not great gameplay.
As for the actual issue, 100% of the solutions I’ve seen so far have one or more flaws, generally that their impact on other good gameplay is greater than the scope of this problem. Which, to be clear, I’m not saying is particularly large. I just think it’s a problem, and as I said before I’m personally opposed to “AFK gameplay” in any game I play.
For example Salt’s suggestion above, make it so you can’t tackle with a Cyno active. That hurts legit Blops drops that don’t involve any AFKing. You now need to send in two ships, one to tackle and one to Cyno, or hope your enemy is an idiot.
The closest thing I’ve seen to the “rough shape” of a fix for this is some kind of system that lets you probe down cloaked ships, but making it take so long that it won’t work if the other side is even remotely paying attention.
The problem with this is that every actual concrete idea proposing this has had some kind of knock-on effect, even if it’s just the ability to tell that a cloaked ship is with you on grid, and that negatively affects cloaky gameplay outside of this instance.
I believe this is fixable, but I suspect whatever fix CCP eventually comes up with is going to have to be an incidental part of a larger rework of some bigger piece of gameplay. The other option is some ridiculously convoluted and targeted fix, and I don’t have great hopes for that. Generally these sorts of fixes tend to have not immediately obvious secondary effects that end up causing more problems down the line, and I don’t have great faith in them from any developer, and I have more faith in CCP than most in this thread.
But yeah, that’s my position. I’m basically just arguing that this is an issue and shouldn’t be rudely dismissed, even if most of the solutions people come up with for it are more issue than solution.
The funny thing is when a player is AFK they are by definition “not there”.
People are afraid of something that is “not there”.
There are no monsters in the closet!!
They are under the bed!
You sure that is not your significant others friend?
At our age, it would scare the monsters more!
I kept an acct subbed for an extra 2 months just so I could send a cloaky PI alt in a dirt ship to afk cloak in null because of this thd!
Wait what? This is exactly how PvP in wormholes works. Either suddenly through a connection warping to a cloaked scout on grid or dropping in from safelog or out of d-scan range.
And you don’t know they are there without local to warn you.
You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Also wrong. The last 16au or whatever the maximum range of dscan is of a warp in takes maybe 5 seconds. Much less for interceptors and other fast-warping ships.
That’s how much warning you get without local.
And if there was a good way to tell that someone is AFK then yeah, sure, this thread probably wouldn’t exist. Except, as previously noted, there isn’t a good way to do that. Also seem comments about knock-on effects.
All of those have some amount of active counter play though, especially around either manipulating your wormhole connections or just having a scout on your entrances and with probes out.
This wasn’t directed at wormhole space, this was referring to Null Sec, apologies for the lack of clarification on that.
Though even in Wormhole Space most of the people I know keep a scout up with probes out.
I was going to post how I deal with that, but it would just rob me of kills. No wonder there is no feedback in the tactics thd’s except to help new players.
I didn’t say there weren’t ways to deal with it, lol, but that sort of play and counter-play is what makes good gameplay. The lack of good and active gameplay is why I feel AFK cloaking is a problem.
As several people have said, this is a thread about AFK cloaking. Not how to play in Wormholes.
Although you continue to ignore it, there is still counterplay to cloaky camping. You don’t like it because apparently it’s boring or whatever but that doesn’t discount it. You’re just repeating yourself ad nauseam.
How about you do your ratting in a fleet with friends so you can fight back and make a less interesting target? That’s an active counterplay to your problem by your very own definitions.