Well? I mean is Local the problem or isn’t it? It’s looking more and more like you are admitting that Local has nothing to do with how bad you are. Take it out of the equation and make people work for the intel and you still cry.
But then you will say “But if they see me they will just dock!”, “Farmers must be under direct threat to balance their ISK making!” etc…
Who cares? If they are docked they are not in space with you, and thus not your problem. Also, they aren’t making ISK in a station, often far in excess of what their ship would be worth depending on how long you stay, which is completely under your control.
You don’t have to blow them up to balance the rewards, as was said by someone else earlier, contesting someone does not mean just shooting them.
In fact, your much touted ‘counter’ to cloaks completely nullifies one of the primary arguments for cloaks staying as they are, which is as a counter to Null Sec ISK making---- While the efficiency per player is down, being in a large fleet, on comms, etc… while still clearing belts and shooting rats means that the actual flow of resources and ISK was unaffected, AKA still bad for the game.
Local is the problem under the current mechanics. What problems would exist under your proposed cloak nerf is an entirely different topic. Removing local and keeping everything else as-is would remove AFK cloaking. Making cloaked ships visible on d-scan would make cloaks worthless against competent players, but thank god CCP doesn’t seem to be dumb enough to do that.
And no, “press the intel button to receive intel” is not really working for it.
If they are docked they are not in space with you, and thus not your problem.
First of all, of course they’re my problem. They’re your problem too. Everyone has a stake in the game as a whole being balanced, even if you are not in the same place as a particular player. Giving someone access to a free titan every hour is not ok, even if you don’t happen to be in space with them as the titans are being issued.
Second, I’m fine with farmers docking and being 100% safe while docked. What I am not fine with is farmers having 100% accurate warning that a potential threat is in system with them and it is time to dock, and 100% accurate warning when that threat leaves the system and it is safe to undock and resume farming.
While the efficiency per player is down, being in a large fleet, on comms, etc… while still clearing belts and shooting rats means that the actual flow of resources and ISK was unaffected, AKA still bad for the game.
Nonsense. Your understanding of basic economics is as limited as your understanding of EVE PvP. Ever hear of this thing called opportunity cost? If efficiency per player is down then so is total revenue, because those players are not independently farming elsewhere while grouped up into a less-efficient farming fleet. It is by definition not possible for the total flow of resources to be the same if player count and time invested remain the same while per-player efficiency decreases.
Please don’t start on opportunity cost. Your not nearly as smart as Teckos and even he is getting it wrong in real terms.
The long standing argument is that to detect cloaks you have to remove local. I strongly disagree, I don’t think the 2 things are linked except tangentially. So instead, we make cloaks detectable and remove them from local. At which point your dribbling squalls prove me right… It’s not local, its just you.
It’s easily illustrated how you would have everything you ever wanted except 100% safe hunting, but without that safety you just can’t stand the idea that someone might disrupt you rather than the other way around.
I know it says AFK Cloaky on the topic line, but that’s not really what the thread is about. I’d make another thread, but it would just get derailed by you and others as an afk cloak thread and sent right back here, as has been demonstrated probably 100’s of times already. You can’t discuss cloaks in any way except to come here. Your constant refrain of remove local to remove afk camping is a strawman, and not relevant to the discussion I’m having. I don’t care about local or afk camping.
If someone is in space and making ISK you can certainly make it your problem by showing up and contesting them for it. Once they are out of space they aren’t your problem. If you want to guard that space against them that’s on you—but they should be able to contest your right to the space just as you did them, because the valuables in that space are there as a conflict driver, not a blueball driver.
Provably false by your own last several posts. Take away local as a 100% accurate source of intel and replace it with the need to Dscan and Probe and you still cry. It’s not Local, snowflake, it’s you.
You are the one insisting on theoretical maximums. Space has a value set by what you can get out of it. If you are getting that, regardless of how many people it’s taking you to do so, then you have not had the desired effect.
As the biggest ISK makers in the game are extremely large entities that are unaffected by campers now, the argument of the cloak needing to remain as is to counter that value and curtail their ISK making is moot—they are still getting it because they are unaffected by it.
No, you’re just proving that your proposal to make cloaks detectable is a stupid means of doing so. Disputing your bad ideas does not necessarily mean disputing all ideas, it just means that you’re bad at EVE.
You are the one insisting on theoretical maximums. Space has a value set by what you can get out of it. If you are getting that, regardless of how many people it’s taking you to do so, then you have not had the desired effect.
JFC you don’t understand basic economics. If you have to consolidate everyone into a single farming operation then you may be extracting maximum value out of that particular space, but you aren’t extracting any value out of all of the other space you could be farming if you had a higher per-player efficiency. The total revenue for your group is reduced significantly.
Except that’s not really how things work, except for small entities.
Large ones are already able to do this, and thus are unaffected and immunized from the balance that is supposedly being achieved by cloaks being as they are.
As the ISK made by large entities is orders of magnitude the largest part of the problem of Null ISK faucets, cloaks are not serving their purpose.
Amazing that Mike had to use 156 words to weasel out of admitting this.
Indeed…
The simplest test as to whether the person is AFK.
Okay, so if we have local and a method to hunt cloaks…you won’t even need to hunt to know the person is almost surely ATK. AFK cloaking in this scenario will only happen for very brief times and in totally empty systems, IMO. In a populated system going AFK for just about any period of time will be extremely risky…and is very, very unlikely to happen.
That he is ATK.
Of course, if you have a method of finding him and you have local, that was almost surely the case to begin with before you even deploy your detection methods.
No, he has made his point several times. You just can’t admit the obvious because it would leave you with nothing…well you already have nothing, you just refuse to admit it.
And now we have this tired old suggestion that has been made since forever. Typically it is a POS module, but just a slight variant on a tired old idea that has been suggested as for as long as cloaks have been in game.
Nonsense, it is shot down (and has been ignored by CCP since forever) because it is unbalanced.
There are counters, you just refuse to utilize them.
This statement is extremely misleading. Cloaks right now are fine. Local lets you know even a cloaked ship is present (WH space being the exception). Things are balanced if sub-optimal. Removing local and not doing anything to cloaks may very well be unbalanced. Which is why @Daichi_Yamato has been saying that local and cloaks will most likely be changed together.
Yeah…no. That guy with the titan going AFK while cloaked is not what they typically do. Titans cannot warp while cloaked. They get the movement penalties. And scanning if fast and quite accurate. So if they warp and cloak with anyone in system then they are not going to go AFK. Super caps pretty much have a target on them the moment they undock. To gather intel you have to be ATK and watching your screen. And even if you could probe them down…rotating between safes can let a player gather intel and still avoid detection.
Not true. It makes a number of those things more difficult. But the point has always been that those are generally ATK activities. They are not AFK activities. People actively using cloaks routinely die. We can see those dead cloaked ships on the killboards. If you are using your cloaking ship such that you are moving from system-to-system you are at risk. If you are using your cloaking ship to attack another player then you are at risk.
Sitting at a secret safe with a cloak is pretty damn low risk.
The others have a degree of risk and CCP appears to be happy in that regards.
Just Mike cares about it. Once he realized that nerfing cloaks also nerfs cloaks for ATK users he quickly switched to the “Cloaks Are OP” mantra and has been pushing it ever since.
See…
You should google the Observatory Array…
Sure it is. I would just set up safes far enough apart so that while warping I can copy and paste local into the intel tools for whomever I am gathering intel while warping. I’d also do the same with D-scan results.
With Mike it is absolutely the former.
And…how much of a threat am I if I constantly do this? None. I can do nothing to you when I am that far away.
OMG…
Really. So if each individual can make say 10 ISK while ratting independently for a total of say 500 ISK (50 people ratting) whereas by ratting in a fleet they make say 7 ISK each or 350 ISK the flow of ISK has not gone down? 350 > 500? There is a reason players tend to rat alone, the ISK/hour is better.
Since Mags is gone…
How do you currently know a cloaked ship is in system with you?
Local.
No local and nobody would AFK cloak because it would have zero effect.
Clearly we need to buff cloaks then? Why do you want to nerf them?
If the significance of your post were measured by word count alone, you would be King.
But unfortunately, you look like one of those people who only cared about meeting the word count requirement, so you rambled incoherently until you got there.
Here’s a hint: pick a topic, and stay on it. You jumped around a heck of a lot, but on quoting people, and the topics they were discussing.
AFK cloaking (which exists for the sole purpose of mitigating the broken local mechanic) is only a problem for RMTers and renter trash, and the sole reason to change it is to benefit those two groups. All proposals for fuel, timers, etc, to remove long-term cloaking are nothing but attempts to RMT more efficiently.
Non-AFK cloaking is not a strategically deep execution of stealth gameplay, but the limits of EVE’s game engine (such as its inability to draw line of sight) make changing this impossible. So far all proposed cloak nerfs are either ineffective and therefore pointless wastes of developer time (too slow to work, too dependent on RNG, etc) or effectively remove cloaks from the game (having cloaked ships appear on d-scan).
CCP understands both of these points, and have explicitly stated that none of the changes proposed in this thread will be listened to, and removing (or at least heavily nerfing) local is a prerequisite for any changes to cloaking. This thread exists for the sole purpose of being a dumping ground for bad ideas from RMTers, so they don’t clutter up the useful parts of the forum.
It comes directly from their statements about cloaks and local: they will not make any changes to cloaking until local is nerfed/removed. Therefore any proposals in this thread before local is changed, or that do not include nerfed local as a prerequisite, will not be listened to by CCP as they do not fit CCP’s plans. And backing this up we have the evidence that this thread, like its predecessor on the old forums, has been completely ignored by CCP except to dump redundant threads into it. They are not listening, at all.
Me thinks that’s more accurate. I’d not be carin’ either ‘bout some jerks who want their rmt to be workin’ in perfect safety 24/7. ■■■■ those guys, and ■■■■ all the insane people in here.
Merin is correct. There is audio, from one of the EVE related podcasts, where they stated cloaking is fine and strongly hinted loacal is going to be delayed at the very least.
You can find the link on the old forums version of this thread.
Greetings.
I was thinking about d. Scanning in general.
How about a module which improve dscann. For more accurate scanning. Or even ships with scann boost both combat scanning and d scanning. Allowing you to pinpoint these cloaky afk bastards. Also alowing you to warp in a specific direction. It wold end the cloaky afk dilema. sounds a good idea for me.
What you think??
