Opposing someone doesn’t automatically mean shooting him.
No, it does not.
Interesting that it seems to be utterly vital when the cloakers want to shoot the farmers, but it’s off the table entirely when the situation is reversed though, right?
It should mean more than just passively tolerating them though.
Cloaking is a remedy to always being visible when you’re trying to gather intel. Or when you’re trying to get through a Gate Camp. Or any other number of reasons one would want to cloak, besides inducing paranoia in Null Sec Care Bears who are deathly afraid of the new name in Local.
If you come up with something to defeat Cloaks, then next month there will be threads asking for a counter to your counter.
The fix, which none of you wants to admit, is removing the Local listing. Then you won’t know if anyone is out there or not, and you’ll live life more cautiously all the time.
Local is it’s own thing. Apparently removing it isn’t the fix, because they could effectively do that today, if they wanted to by switching it to a delayed channel.
I can’t tell you why local is there the way it is, the game launched with it. It didn’t launch with cloaks.
I’m guessing keeping an individual from showing in the local roster based on a condition like activating a cloak is harder than it seems, but if they did that and made them show up on Dscan and made them probeable I’d be fine with that too. That way you wouldn’t know they were there unless you specifically looked.
Despite that being the number one complaint—that you show up in local— I guarantee you that a proposal to take them out of local but leave them on scan and probes would be met with enough vitriol to burn down the servers.
The people supporting cloaks as they are simply cannot stand, under any circumstances whatsoever, to be opposed. They have to have 100% safety or they just can’t deal.
Why would they show up on Dscan or Probes, if they’re Cloaked ? That’s the whole point of a Cloaking Device.
As much as some folks may complain that Cloaks allow them to gather Intel without recourse… The mere fact that Local lists the names of every person in system is a guaranteed Intel source without recourse. And I agree, it’s too complicated to make names appear and disappear based on what Modules they’re running. But there are alternatives already built into the game.
You can set Local to list names for 5-15 min, and then they disappear. The don’t reappear unless the person refreshes their Local presence by re-entering the system, or by speaking in chat. CCP could easily force that setting upon Low / Null, and then the Care Bears would never know for sure if there’s a Boogeyman lurking in the shadows.
Or they could treat it like Wormholes. No names appear whatsoever, unless you speak. Then you have absolutely no clue if there’s a Boogeyman out there. Anyone undocking would have to be extra careful at all times… As it should be in “lawless space”.
You are correct, CCP could apply any number of fixes to “the Cloak problem”. But they haven’t. Which kinda tells us that, despite the number of tears in this 3225 post thread, they don’t think it’s a problem.
Yes, because it would be a really stupid suggestion. Put cloaked ships on d-scan and now every farmer can just spam 100,000km d-scan and be 100% immune to cloaked threats. The cloaked ship will appear on d-scan long before it can arrive on-grid and get into attack position, and the farmer will warp out. Though I’m not at all surprised that you’re advocating a system that would emphasize safety for RMT botters.
Yes, because it would be a really stupid suggestion. Put cloaked ships on d-scan and now every farmer can just spam 100,000km d-scan and be 100% immune to cloaked threats. The cloaked ship will appear on d-scan long before it can arrive on-grid and get into attack position, and the farmer will warp out. Though I’m not at all surprised that you’re advocating a system that would emphasize safety for RMT botters.
The people supporting cloaks as they are simply cannot stand, under any circumstances whatsoever, to be opposed. They have to have 100% safety or they just can’t deal.
Stop lying. Cloaked PvP is not 100% safe. The only 100% safety is sitting idle in a safespot, which is only a meaningful attack if the target is RMT bot that is programmed to dock if any unknown names appear in local (or a player of equivalent skill). If you want to attack anything but a RMT bot you have to decloak and face the normal PvP risks.
The reason cloaks have to be 100% undetectable is because detection in EVE is binary. There is no middle ground of “hard to see, so you’ll have to approach using obstacles to block line of sight and minimize your time in the open” or whatever. You’re either invisible or you’re detected and you might as well fit something else in that high slot. And this is a problem that can not be changed. EVE’s game engine does not support the features required for more complex stealth mechanics.
Immune?
There was nothing in that suggestion to make cloaks drop and have the ships be targetable. You would still need to get within 2k to decloak and attack the cloaker.
If he was setting up an attack all he would have to do is make sure he didn’t almost literally bump into his target until he was ready. To set up his invisible camp all he’d have to do is spend some time burning out past Dscan range. He could still launch probes just as he does now, and the only time he’d be showing up in local was while actually launching them.
They don’t have to be completely immune to all interaction on every level to be effective or give an advantage to a hunter. It’s just that they have become such a crutch at this point that those who use them to hunt that way have atrophied to the point they can’t stand to have even the slightest non-consensual action directed against them.
Stop lying. Of course you strive for better, because it’s still possible to get better even if you can never reach some theoretical 100% maximum that was calculated by ignoring half the game mechanics. If you’re at 10% you strive for 20%. If you’re at 20% you strive for 50%. The fact that you can only reach 90% doesn’t mean you just settle for 10%.
It’s just like the sleep example I posted, which you conveniently ignored. There is a theoretical maximum ISK/week that is not achievable. It requires farming 23/7, beyond the limits of human endurance and far beyond the limits of what a normal person can spend on a game. Does the fact that you can only play for a couple of hours every night reduce the game to “bopping each other over the head mindlessly”, crying about how nothing is worth doing because you can’t reach 100%? Do you buy black market drugs to keep you awake as long as possible so that you can farm the most ISK? Of course not. The existence of some theoretical maximum ISK/week that you could obtain if you only calculate certain parts of the game doesn’t stop you from trying.
JFC you have no clue how PvP works. You proposed having cloaked ships on d-scan. Now every RMT botter has d-scan refreshing as fast as possible at 100,000km range. A cloaked ship moving in to attack will appear on d-scan long before it can arrive on-grid and get into tackle position, and as soon as that cloaked ship appears on d-scan the RMT bot will warp out.
Or perhaps you do know how PvP works. Maybe you know exactly how much this would cripple cloaked ships, and how much it would benefit RMT farmers. I’ll leave others to speculate on why you would knowingly support such a RMT-friendly mechanic…
You are continue to argue against your own strawman.
I said it’s pointless because you can’t even try. Your magic safety button sets a ceiling that you can’t contest, much like the hard limits of how much you can get from a mining laser running at perfect efficiency with no sleep.
The difference being the camper is something you should be able to contest. You can’t fight biology or the hard numbers of a maxxed out module. You should be able to fight other players.
Botters are beyond the scope of this discussion.
They are already illegal, all you need to do is report them.
Someone who isn’t a bot is not likely to spam Dscan the entire time they are on. Stop moving your goalposts.
But all those arguments just go to prove, Local isn’t the problem.
Take local out of the equation and make pilots actively look for ambush and you have the same tired whimpers about how if you can be seen at all your PvP is completely broken.
You also can’t try to play 23/7 for weeks at a time. You can’t contest it. And yet you still keep trying to maximize your farming revenue.
The difference being the camper is something you should be able to contest. You can’t fight biology or the hard numbers of a maxxed out module. You should be able to fight other players.
You can contest them. You can fly in a 50-man PvP fleet as you do your PvE content, making it suicide for the cloaked player to do anything but sit idle in a safespot. The issue for you is not that you can’t contest them, it’s that “contesting” does not mean “prevent them from staying logged in while AFK so that local becomes 100% accurate warning of a threat”.
Someone who isn’t a bot is not likely to spam Dscan the entire time they are on.
JFC you know nothing about PvP, no wonder you keep proposing stupid ideas so stubbornly. Anyone with a minimal level of skill in EVE is spamming d-scan as fast as they can click the button unless they are cloaked/behind a POS shield/etc, in a fleet with someone next to them spamming d-scan for them, or there are no potential threats in local.
Take local out of the equation and make pilots actively look for ambush and you have the same tired whimpers about how if you can be seen at all your PvP is completely broken.
Remove local while changing no other mechanics and nobody will ever AFK cloak again. Problem solved. Local is absolutely the problem, the sole reason anyone AFK cloaks at all.
This is the very opposite of contesting them. This is passively tolerating them with no contest whatsoever and just raising the bar for them to attack.
Just as they are not contesting the farmer, just passively raising the bar to farming with no contest.
That breaks the game from what EVE is supposed to be, and negates the entire point of using PvE as a conflict driver.
JFC you know nothing about anything, which is why every word that falls out of you is like suffering a stroke. Anyone with a minimal experience in PvE knows that sometimes you have to press other buttons to do other things, or scratch your nose, or just get tired of pressing the same button every 5 seconds across a play session that can last hours.
More arguing against strawmen. AFK isn’t the problem. Go afk all you like. Nobody cares. As has been repeated over and over there are more things going on under cloaks, all of which deserve to be opposed, than just scaring farmers in Null.
All the pro-cloak arguments go back to the same debunked idea that cloaks are needed to counter local, but if you take local from the equation you are still sobbing your little gankbear heart out that someone might actually shoot at you before you are ready.
I’m sorry, what exactly is the point of continuing a discussion about PvP mechanics with someone who is so ignorant of PvP mechanics that they think people don’t spam d-scan?
2 Likes
Awesome, off you go then.
Of course people check Dscan. But if they aren’t a bot they are not doing so every moment they are playing, for the exact same reasons afk cloaking works now.
It’s amusing to see you flounder and fall into just attacking anyone who disagrees with you because you can’t think enough to know when you have no logical ground to stand on.
Seriously… you just went from Cloaks have to counter local, intel should not be free, everything comes with effort to literally “I have to be completely safe and undetected right up until the second I start shooting or PvP is broken.”
Again, you are completely ignorant of PvP mechanics. If you want to succeed at PvP you are spamming d-scan in any situation where there could possibly be a threat, because d-scan is an extremely powerful intel tool and your best chance of success in a lot of situations depends on getting d-scan intel as fast as possible. The fact that you don’t understand this demonstrates that you have no clue how PvP works.
And yes, if you have a cloak you should be undetectable right up until you decloak to engage, because otherwise the cloak does not work. If your target sees you on d-scan before you even land on grid with them then the cloak has done nothing for you, and you would be better off replacing the cloaked ship with a conventional ship that has far superior combat stats. That’s what happens when you have a game with a binary detection system, but alas it is not 1998 anymore and we can’t go back and add those features to the EVE game engine.
The problem here is that you just aren’t smart enough to do anything but repeat things you heard from people better than you.
We aren’t just talking about people doing PvP. We are talking about people doing PvE being preyed upon by other people doing PvP.
You are still trying to live in a perfect world where everything is “easy, you just do X.” This is the thinking and rationale of a toddler. Grownups know that the actual world is often more messy and complex than that.
In the example where a cloak keeps you out of local and you bothered to move yourself out of easy Dscan range the cloak did help you. You were in system, you can see local, so you know when others are there with you, and since you can put out probes you can even know by checking once in a while when they have been active for a while, believing themselves to be alone. If you get probes close enough that you pinpoint them you know they aren’t watching Dscan. If you are in a covert ship at that point the first indication they will have of your presence is when you drop your cloak put out probes for a second, and then the same to point them. But you could use a ship that isn’t covert, giving them a few more seconds of warning as you are already in warp and headed their way, but you have a stronger ship if you do land tackle.
Of course, the flip side to that is that they too can put out probes, which means that it’s a contest of paranoia. Did you go out further than they checked with probes? Now you have to watch for probes too, and not sit still if they find you. Likely you have to spend time getting far enough out from the system center that a standard spread won’t pick you up. gasp! the effort!!!
Those people are also spamming d-scan as fast as possible. In fact, they’re more concerned with spamming d-scan than a PvP attacker might be, because the only defense of a solo PvE-fitted ship is running away and d-scan is your best chance of getting early enough warning to run away.
In the example where a cloak keeps you out of local and you bothered to move yourself out of easy Dscan range the cloak did help you.
Except it didn’t, because if you ever want to get back into d-scan range to do anything (like attack a target) your cloak goes back to being useless. Or, if you’re moving out of d-scan range to go AFK then you just log out.
If you get probes close enough that you pinpoint them you know they aren’t watching Dscan.
Why are we talking about such a ridiculous scenario? You might as well point out that if they say “IM SELF DESTRUCTING” in local and then you see their wreck on d-scan they probably did in fact self destruct. Game mechanics should be balanced based on an assumption of both sides making the correct play, not assuming that one side is a ****ing idiot who Darwins themselves into a killmail.