It’s funny, because Teckos regularly points out where my position has shifted due to points he successfully supported logically.
So if he’s being dissentious, intellectually dishonest, and constantly resetting or moving his goal posts… What’s that make you?
I’m only here because of the dishonesty and lack of logic on the pro-cloak side. All dozen or so of you like to shout down honest discourse, Most of my posts are just recovering old ground when your side tries to reset on previously debunked points.
Well, you’re right about that. You’re remarkably consistent in demanding buffs for RMT farmers.
And that’s why it’s a bad idea. AFK cloaking is not a problem. Your proposal buffs RMT farmers and renter trash by making local more accurate, but does nothing to make cloaked gameplay more interesting.
Because “seeing” and “detection” are closely related. The battle of positioning is normally what makes stealth gameplay interesting as it’s the component most heavily under player control. Things like “detection” by RNG of ewar vs. sensors tend to be passive elements where the RNG calculates an answer regardless of player actions. But things like using cover, sneaking up behind people, etc, those are purely player skill in anticipating a target’s movement and then making the right counter-move. Take that away and you’re left with flying straight at the target and rolling the RNG dice to see if you can make it within 30km to point it before the RNG makes your cloak fail.
No, the unacceptable part is that it would have a chance to fail that is pure RNG, with no interaction from either player. It’s boring for the cloaked ship, it’s boring for the target. But of course you favor it, because it increases the chances for a RMT farmer (who is poorly skilled at best, and probably a bot) to escape by randomly revealing with cloaked ship with no skill required.
A chance to fail that is based on superior play by the target is acceptable, but not well supported by EVE’s game engine. For example, a cloaked ship might be sneaking up on a target from behind, staying in the sensor blind spot of its engine trail, when the target decides to make a 90* turn (got to check that blind spot) and suddenly has a clear line to the cloaked ship. The cloak fails because the player was outmaneuvered, and the only question is whether the target just runs away or turns its guns on the now-visible threat and kills it. But this doesn’t count as real risk for you, because it requires the target to have superior skill instead of just fitting a “reveal cloak” module or, better, having local/d-scan automatically reveal the threat before it can engage.
You would never accept that since all it takes to defeat it is an alt facing the other way.
Nice try though. You are still Batshit, but it’s the first time you have ever even tried to engage in discussion.
Hate to break it to you, but all those other game engines with the wonderful stealth gameplay you are advocating are also pure RNG. All that line of sight BS you blather about is pretty simple stuff that adjusts a %hidden vs a %perception comparison. Sure, you have some control over maximizing your %hidden, but it’s still just RNG.
On the other hand, if cloaks were on Dscan, Dscan was affected by signature, and one of the effects of the cloak (to replace 100% lol immune) was a significant reduction in signature, you would have not only more control over when you get detected, more nuanced stealth play, but also an option to make cloaks useful in combat by making them an active defense module.
This could be backed up by further low slot modules that also reduced signature, possibly with a bonus when used in tandem with a cloak, giving more nuanced stealth gameplay, more meaningful fitting options related to it, and a more balanced game over all.
Yes, obviously this is a highly simplified example and not a thoroughly developed idea. EVE’s game engine doesn’t support the required elements (no line of sight, no ship facing, etc) so there’s no point in fully developing the concept in the concept of EVE. If it were to be implemented then obviously there would be other changes to mechanics.
Hate to break it to you, but all those other game engines with the wonderful stealth gameplay you are advocating are also pure RNG. All that line of sight BS you blather about is pretty simple stuff that adjusts a %hidden vs a %perception comparison. Sure, you have some control over maximizing your %hidden, but it’s still just RNG.
The point is that it’s not pure RNG. Because EVE can’t do those things all you can have is a straight RNG-off between stealth and detection. Every X seconds you have a Y% chance to lose your stealth and fail your attack, skill is not a factor. Which is why you like it, because even a RMT bot can roll the RNG dice and have the same Y% chance of revealing the cloaked ship and escaping.
On the other hand, if cloaks were on Dscan, Dscan was affected by signature, and one of the effects of the cloak (to replace 100% lol immune) was a significant reduction in signature, you would have not only more control over when you get detected, more nuanced stealth play, but also an option to make cloaks useful in combat by making them an active defense module.
Now how about you think through the consequences of this. Outside of cloaking what would be the effects of d-scan no longer being accurate? How would the cloaked ship have control over detection when d-scan would be pure RNG and the only question is if you can get into position before the target can press “scan” enough times (remember, they’re spamming that button as fast as possible) to win the RNG and see you on d-scan?
Part of the point is that the cloaked ship does not have control over when they get detected. They can influence it in a number of ways, starting with selecting a smaller hull for a smaller base signature, avoiding fits that rely on shield extenders and such, use rigs to improve warp speed to minimize the window of time their target has to detect them… but it’s not completely in their control, and it never should have been completely in their control in the first place.
As to what breaks when Dscan is no longer reliable? Not much since only cloaked ships would be significantly difficult to find, not their probes.
You realize that no other changes to dscan are included in the suggestion, right?
You will still be able to see uncloaked ships, probes, objects, etc… just fine. You might have to get a bit closer to see some very small things.
But no, you probably didn’t realize it. You probably only saw that I replaced crouching behind a rock with shrinking your signature, and attacking from behind with improving your warp speed, and then decided that since it involved effort on your part that it breaks all of EVE again.
The two aren’t mutually exclusive. A broken clock shows the correct time twice a day too. Your core opinion of cloakers being totally risk-free while imposing all the risk all the time has been logically debunked time and again, yet you still cling to it like a drug addict to his poison.
You neither understand logic, nor the game mechanics at play here. You’re not taking any education about it either, neither from us, nor by yourself. All you do is write illiterate trash “arguments” that might as well be summed up as “CCP WHY DO I HAVE TO PVP IN THE PVP ZONE OF A PVP SANDBOX? GIVE 100% RISK FREE SPACE!”
Funny that you accuse Teckos of doing the exact thing that you’ve done for the past years.
Were you looking in a mirror while you wrote that?
Did you hit your head, or are you just drunk posting?
At no point have I complained about PvP in a PvP zone.
In fact, I’m advocating for a mechanic that brings PvP to someone who is currently safe from it, in a PvP zone.
Until you can show me how a cloaked ship is in danger of any sort while cloaked, you have no leg to stand on. That ship can literally be 2001m away, and the only danger he experiences is the most extreme bad luck— and that was at his sole discretion, because he could have backed up 20km and even that danger would cease to exist.
The flipside is also not true. You aren’t complaining that farmers are safe in a pvp zone. You are complaining that farmers are safe when they dock.
You are whining about people who are not in space with you. Sorry, you don’t get to shoot people who aren’t in space with you. That’s not how the game works.
Man. You never listen. You just go back to the same old thing.
I don’t care about local. I don’t agree that it’s part of the problem.
I even suggested letting cloaks stay out of local in exchange for putting them on Dscan and making them able to be probed, largely as an example as to how little Local has to do with the issue.
You do remember this whole conversation right? Because you were not in favor, nor interested in discussing any part of it. As I sense you are not now, because you don’t discuss things with an honest interest in discussion.
Merin, on the other hand, cried himself into a puddle at the thought that some dude might click Dscan every 5 seconds for 10 hours and thus have warning when he showed up, even though he wasn’t in local and could have, at any time, gotten into the system and out of dscan or even a standard probe range.
Merin is terrified that not every aspect of the engagement might be in his absolute favor without a mechanically perfect nanny button to ensure his success.
The only way I’d consider that change is if having a cloak fitted meant the player did not show in local. So even for that split second when the player goes from gate cloak to covert cloak he is still not showing in local…
No, you don’t get a passive cloak module with absolutely no drawbacks for such a powerful advantage.
However, you could cloak up with a much higher chance of being missed in the time it took you to switch from gate cloak to personal cloak… and there could be a short delay before anyone was dropped into Local so that you have time to activate the cloak.
Which then leaves you traveling out of easy Dscan range if you are looking to set up a camp, and preferably outside an average spread of probes, though that’s less problematic since you will be constantly moving. Given enough time you could get far enough away that only the most paranoid even have a chance of finding you until they see you or your probes on Dscan. Even the probes are not a big deal, since a change like this means everyone will put out probes from time to time.
This thread makes me want to go somewhere and cloak for no reason whatsoever, and then go do something IRL. The effect is entirely emotional and the only emotion is pixel fear
