Main AFK cloaky thread

(Mike Voidstar) #424

No, you miss the point of the argument.

No one wants to fight these jokers, they just want to defend their space from them. Except it’s not allowed because they had an extra 100 PG and a spare utility high.

(Scipio Artelius) #425

I haven’t missed anything.

If people wanted to defend their space, then again, there is no issue. They can just simply wait and then take the fight.

It isn’t about wanting to defend anything. It’s 100% about wanting risk free space.

However, people who want to remove the camper have options, other than crying to CCP to change the game to make it easier for them. That’s just typical weak mindedness that is so common in the game currently.

(Mike Voidstar) #426

So Jump one gate (abandon the space rather than use it, he wins!), if he’s AFK No worries (he wins from an unassailable position without effort), if he isn’t kill him (assuming he is stupid and takes the bait, otherwise wasting everyone’s time because he is in an unassailable position with a complete lock on initiative)

If he is currently AFK he is immune to all efforts to hunt him leaving you again with the options of fly stupid, leave or log, because at some point he won’t be, so kill him only on his terms.

It’s So Easy. Yep.

(Mike Voidstar) #427

Waiting for over a decade to hear what the option is to remove the camper rather than just tolerate him or abandon the space to him.

(Scipio Artelius) #428

No one is saying abandon the space. You aren’t abandoning your space by dealing with the issue.

That’s such a loser attitude and so typical in this discussion. Jumping a gate is abandoning nothing. It’s dealing with the threat in a way that the game already provides. It’s taking advantage of the situation to expose the camper and then kill it.

Unfortunately, carebears just have no mental capacity to actually think positively about anything.

(Mike Voidstar) #429

Ok, follow the logic here…

Player 1 wants to use the space. The nature of PVE means that you don’t take ships fit that way into PvP fights. You can fit for PvP, but in general you will really suck at PvE with that fit, assuming you can do that content at all.

Player 2 is under a cloak.

Player 1 can either compromise or fly stupid if he wants to use the space, or he can leave the system. While player 1 does not want to play a PvP playstyle, he would hunt player 2 to clear the way for his playstyle if it was an option, but it’s not. Player 1 cannot make player 2 follow him, or force him into any sort of risky behavior at all, thus leaving the system is abandoning the use of that space entirely, unless player 2 decides otherwise at his own discretion.

(Scipio Artelius) #430

If a pvp fleet came into system, he would have to compromise.

It’s no different. He deals with the threat in the best way he can with the tools the game provides. Making the cloaky camper expose himself (jumping gate is the easiest, but not the only way), is the best way to deal with that.

It’s no different to other situations. Whether it’s a pvp fleet, a wormhole in system that has a wormhole group active in the connections, a guy just bouncing around safes, etc.

If there is a threat, deal with it.

Don’t come whinging and whining for the game to be changed and made easier. That’s unfortunately the pathetic state we are in. Everyone just whinges for the game to be made easier for them.

There are many of us that believe, opposite to popular opinion that it’s risk that drives people away from the game, it’s the pandering to pussies that is turning this game into a themepark.

Screw that. Just take responsibility for it and deal with it. It’s even simple to do and effective.

(Mike Voidstar) #431

Making the cloaky camper expose himself

This is the problem. There is no way to do this whatsoever. He exposes himself 100% at his own discretion, with every possible piece of information at his disposal to make that decision with.

You cannot force any action upon a cloaked ship unless you already know where it is. It does not have to be at some remote safe spot either, just better than 2k away from the nearest other object so long as no one saw it cloak.

It’s hilarious calling those that want to deal with this whiners when it’s the cloaked crowd that is so vocal about keeping their perfect safety for the rest of time.

(Scipio Artelius) #432

If he doesn’t. then what’s the problem? He is no risk whatsoever. You are 100% safe if he never exposes himself, so you’re just crying over nothing.

If you can encourage him to expose himself, then you win.

Either way here it’s a win-win.

He stays cloaked (AFK or not) and you win. He exposes himself and you kill him and you win.

Unfortunately, carebears will just never understand this. The problem is always someone else’s responsibility.

There is of course another way all together to handle it and that’s grow big enough that you are the biggest fish in the neighbourhood. If you are the biggest fish, then cloaky campers are completely irrelevant anyway, since there’s no reason to fear them.

However, not everyone is able to grow to be the biggest fish, which is logically impossible for everyone to be. In which case, it you aren’t the predator, you’re the prey and that’s also perfectly fine in EVE.

(Mike Voidstar) #433

You are wanting to pretend that the ship is no danger just because it hasn’t attacked yet…

except that still leaves you with the options of flying compromised or flying stupid.

You want to continue to defend the stance that activating a cloak means you can hunt from complete safety, while ensuring your prey can’t even work to achieve temporary safety.

(Scipio Artelius) #434

You are wanting to misunderstand what I write. At no point have I expressed that view.

All I have said is deal with it using the existing mechanics and it’s easy to do. That’s standard risk management in the game. There is a threat, deal with it.

Just don’t go continuously whining to CCP to change the game so it is easier for you. It’s already easy, but you refuse to use even the current methods available.

Typical loser carebear approach to the game and there will be no shift in your view, so it’s pointless continuing this discussion. We are just talking at each other endlessly, which is futile.

(Mike Voidstar) #435

If he doesn’t. then what’s the problem? He is no risk whatsoever. You are 100% safe if he never exposes himself, so you’re just crying over nothing.

So he is “no risk whatsoever” because he hasn’t attacked yet.

You keep saying use the existing mechanics to “deal with it”. The point is that the existing mechanics provide no way to actually do so that does not provide the camper with a win by default.

(Teckos Pech) #436

Exactly. What would happen if it were possible to find a cloaked ship, say with probes? Nobody would do it. It would simply stop. So this the claim, “Take the fight to our aggressor” is no different than, “I want to scan down cloaked ships and PvP them!” PvP a ship where the player is AFK…a ship that is noted for being squishier than it’s non-cloaking counter parts. Okay Mr. LeetPvP. :roll_eyes: This claim is simply errant rubbish and I’d actually have more respect for, “I want to PvE in a safe bubble where the player interaction is only in one direction…mine.” At least it would be hones.

(Teckos Pech) #437

In fact, if after you jump one gate, bubble up, and he doesn’t show. And you do it a few more times, now with a squishy target (say an epithal or some other hauler) and he still doesn’t show. Jump back into the originating system and PvE there. He is AFK.

Prediction: The response will be, “Until he is not…oh boo hoo hoo. We must play as if he is ATK…but of course, keeping the bubble up is outlandish!” The sheer, “I want to have my cake and eat it too,” mentality.

I thought you just said you wanted a way to take the fight to your aggressor…so which is it now? You want to fight or not and the latter being nobody can interrupt you from injecting resources into the game or ISK?

How does he win? If he is AFK, jump back in and PvP. In the old sticky thread I did a Bayesian probability calculation to help determine if a player is AFK. Scipio is basically saying the same thing.

Here is what you do. Get a buddy or an alt (don’t whine about alts, if it bothers you that much get a fecking friend in this MMO…where the second fecking ‘M’ stands for multi-player). He is in a dictor. You use and epithal. Fly around like you are doing PI. Then jump the gate. Jump the gate a number of times with your buddy on the other side. If he makes no appearance he is most likely AFK.

Use your system.

I have also said you can use KBs, corp information, etc. to try and get an idea of when this guy is on and what TZ he is. That can help in your determination of “Is he AFK or not.” Is it perfect? No. But so what, it is a game where there should be some degree of risk, especially when you are doing things like gathering resources or currency.

You know how you used to whine about how the “camper was thwarting the efforts of hundreds of player”? Remember that from the old thread? I can go find those quotes if you want. Anyhow…why not get a few of those “hundreds of players” and you know…rat in the same system with ships that are more PvP fit. Or even in a group in the same anomaly. Yes, you might make less ISK/tick or whatever, but:

  1. You’ll be making ISK
  2. You’ll be "defending your space. You are there and using it, and your indexes will stay “up”.
  3. You’ll be denying him content
  4. Denying him content will likely send him looking for greener pastures.

No, what Scipio wrote is:

You even quoted it. And it is true. If the camper is NEVER going to expose himself to risk then he is no risk to you.

So on one hand you whine the camper poses a risk. Then on the other you whine he never exposes himself to risk. Thus, you have a contradiction. And obvious and glaring contradiction.

Scipio then went on…

In other words, if he refuses (most likely because he is AFK) to expose himself to risk…you win. If he does and you catch and kill him, you win. Granted, he could escape, but even if he comes back you can try to catch him again.

I am going to disagree slightly with Scipio; it is not just the current mechanics but also your tactics and strategies.

You have a hostile in your system. You know he is there, just not were. You have a case of asymmetrical warfare. As such you tactics and strategies have to change. You shouldn’t just undock in a min-maxed anomaly fit. So the environment has changed and you have to change with it. So it is more than just mechanics, although mechanics are extremely important as they’ll have a very strong influence on your response. Eve is basically a co-evolutionary process. In a co-evolutionary setting, as one participant changes its response (adapts) it changes the fitness landscape which in turn changes the responses of other participants. This makes the game interesting and challenging. Simply removing or nerfing cloaks takes some of this away and makes the game “less”.

(Mike Voidstar) #438

Try quoting whole sentences instead of cherry picking what you want to hear.

No one wants to fight these jokers, but would do so to clear the way for their preferred activities.

They don’t want a fight either, or they would be active. What they are after is a kill, and in the mean time to disrupt any activities the locals might want to do. He wins this by default as his presence forces compromise and active defense against a threat that won’t materialize while active defense is in place.

(Teckos Pech) #439

Please, we all know you don’t. Just be honest about this. In fact, why don’t you just play on Singularity. PvP is consensual in almost all systems. You can mine and rat and so forth to your hearts content.

You can’t fight if you are AFK. And those who are active are killing people, a quick glance at the KBs would confirm this.

A kill is the result of a fight. And the EVE meta is for fights were you are more likely to win than lose. So change the meta, but don’t ask the Devs to do it for y ou.

Anybody coming into your space that is not blue then “wins by default” using this standard. Seriously you got nothing here. You have broadened the “I win button” standard to be totally meaningless.

“OMG! Look, a guy in our space in a velator! Everyone dock up!!! He might have a cyno!” Clearly a scenario that requires immediate Dev intervention. :roll_eyes:

(Lena Crews) #440

Not gonna happen.

(Teckos Pech) #441

Despite it being the norm. :roll_eyes:

Look, Mike and other’s opposed to cloaking do not want to fight at all. This is a sentiment that Mike has admitted to in the past. His claims of “we want to take the fight to the aggressor” simply ring hollow.

Make it the focus of my playstyle? You are absolutely right. I don’t care to participate as someone else’s ‘content’. I don’t care to engage in predatory PvP myself. PvE professions are mostly bait and switch to fool people into being easy targets.–Mike Voidstar, emphasis added

(Eric Lemmonte) #442

How about this… They make the observatory array’s like they’ve said in past dev blogs. That way the inactive cloakies will be in trouble. It’ll probably show up like a beacon or something warpable to by sov/structure owners.

Observatory arrays
Dedicated to intelligence gathering.
Service module possibilities: Being able to increase, decrease or block Star Map filters in the solar systems they’re deployed, act as solar system wide D-scan blockers, disrupt ship intelligence in the solar system, take over player tracking capabilities from NPC agents or be able to affect or pinpoint cloak users. We are considering basing their effectiveness through a network coverage (like cell phones) so that a single one may not be that useful, but maintaining a bunch of them in space could give a significant advantage.

(Teckos Pech) #443

Yep, that is my preferred solution along with removing local. The observatory array would let the player regain some aspects of local, but not all and it would be vulnerable to attack. Hopefully more vulnerable than the current sov structures.

This way we get rid of AFK cloaking. Lurking up on someone in a cloaky ship might become more tricky, and at the same time more viable (your avatar does not pop up in loacl 1-2 seconds before you even load grid).