Main AFK cloaky thread

Anyone saying cloaking does anything to hurt RMT or bottling is wistfully misinformed or deliberately ignoring the truth. If that’s your only argument why cloaking should remain perpetually 100% safe, the duck doesn’t float.
Besides, it’s not the players job to deal with botters and RMT. No one should be dealing with it at all, and CCP should actually get off their asses and deal with botters properly and permanently. Many solutions could have been implemented to completely stop botting years ago.

I don’t think you should be undocked in eve and be 100% safe.
Yet here we are, with a select few arguing for keeping just that. For business reasons? Personal ones? I don’t know, but they keep barking about problems that aren’t their problems like they are CCPs watchdogs.

Cloaking devices generating very minor amounts of heat while active would remove their permanent safety, while still allowing for the device to function as before.
This adjustment would increase the number of pvp engagements that are currently being denied by it’s current perpetual safety.

On the subject of local, CCP has already made it more difficult to escape in things like carriers and rorquals, or even titans that use a superweapon (and these are the primary hunting targets)
I do not believe CCP will do anything more than keep your appearance in local hidden while gatecloak is active. I haven’t done enough research into the idea as I view local changes merely a symptom of the underlying problem, though the fact local hasn’t changed yet throws salt on the idea of CCP completely catering to PVP players.

I just wanna shoot ships.
If anything, warping and jumping away is just too quick, which is also a problem, but that’s another discussion.

This thread is not ready for suggestions yet.

No one has defined a problem that is real.

It isn’t. But when RMTers post on the forums demanding buffs for their RMT operations it is entirely appropriate to label them RMTers. But I’m sure it would be awfully convenient for you if RMTers were free to lobby for RMT buffs and everyone else had to pretend that they were legitimate requests.

This adjustment would increase the number of pvp engagements that are currently being denied by it’s current perpetual safety.

STOP LYING.

You emphasize over and over again how easy it is for an active player to avoid being decloaked, and an inactive player is not going to stay logged in while AFK if they can be caught and killed before they get back. There will be effectively zero additional PvP generated by your proposal.

Stop arguing with him, he is just a RMT botter pretending to be on the “other side”.

So fake, reminds me of DT.

In the topic on these forums. The thread itself is much older. :stuck_out_tongue:

We have 10k posts here: AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals - Player Features and Ideas Discussion - EVE Online Forums

And a collection of all the “ideas” that the botters and rmt’ers have come up with over the past 13 years here: AFK Cloaking Collection Thread - Player Features and Ideas Discussion - EVE Online Forums
That post is from 2013 and they still haven’t managed to come up with anything new since then. Still the same ol’ stupid ideas that were debunked over a decade ago.

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The only thing that’s changed since the original thread is the local chat failure proving the AFK part relies purely upon local being perfect intel. Any arguments to change the cloak modules themselves are rendered ridiculous by this.

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Oh yes…the “I want to engage a ship were I am pretty sure the player is not ATK”. Very impressive and convincing.

Cloaks are designed to hide a ship and also render the ship harmless. A cloaked ship cannot target you let alone shoot you. It can only target and shoot you by dropping its cloak and thus make itself a target.

Active players being rewarded is not the same as AFK players being penalized.

Your heat over time proposal does the latter, not the former.

It also warrants pointing out that there are (for the most part) two kinds of botters at play here: The cloaky passive intel network bots and the Roqrual-flying ISK harvesting bots. Your heat proposal certainly hurts passive intel bots, but it makes ISK harvesting bots lives easier.

So in a very real way, your proposed change supports bots.

If you want to change the cloaking dynamic in a way that doesn’t reward any bots, it has to have an accompanying change to how local works.

Well that’s the problem with finding a middle ground.
I wanted the ability to hunt cloaked ships, but the babies are all up in arms about me taking away their safe space.
So after many attempts to gather information, the heat idea is were I landed.

As much as I would prefer the game to favor the active player over some kind of passive activity, mechanically alot has to change for that to happen. Hell, I think it’s too easy to escape a fight in eve, but there’s also not enough going for the small group to even wish to fight over something.

And, as mentioned before, ignore the notion of bots and RMT. If CCP really wanted it gone, they would take steps to eliminate those activities completely. Other games and bots and some RMT, and other games solve the problem in one way or another.

Yes but how? Far too many fools simply call for the full removal of local, others still claim it’s not an issue. Hell, being able to warp away so quickly is one reason why local even matters. If it took 5x longer to enter warp… local really wouldn’t be much of an issue outside of extensive intel networks

Do you say pirate ships don’t show up in local at all?
Do we ask for those ships to instead have a 1 minute delay for showing up?
Or do we do something else, like the change to networked sensor arrays. What if the problem wasn’t local, but the speed in which people can respond to change?

None of that really solves the issue of having people out and about in space, choosing to fight, choosing to do small group activity. In eve right now it’s go big or go home. There’s no middle ground on anything really.

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Your entire post presupposes that there is a problem to be solved. Given that this discussion has been going on in some way, shape, or form for a decade or more, I think it’s safe to say that nobody has yet proven that AFK cloaking is an issue that needs to be fixed. I’ve long since lost the original quote, but on the old forums one of the CCP devs said something to the effect of:

There is no middle ground when nothing is broken, which is why you can’t find it.

I propose that we do nothing.

While I am not in favor of botting at all, the AFK cloaky intel gathering bots at least do their botting out-of-game; all they do is sit in local and let third-party software collect publicly available data. They’re not doing anything in-game that I (or apparently CCP) take issue with. The issue with these particular bots isn’t in-game mechanics, it’s the power of third-party software coupled with client data. If you want to stop this form of botting, go after their source of power, which isn’t AFK cloaking.

If, and only if, CCP were to change how cloaking works, the best proposal that I’ve heard to date is to removed players in cloaked ships from local and to also block their access to local for as long as they are cloaked. Not just in nullsec, but everywhere outside of wormhole space. This would limit the ability of AFK cloaky intel-gathering bots while still allowing active players to toggle their cloaks every so often to get an eye on local, it would mean that resource-gathering bots (be they miners or ratters) would be less secure because they couldn’t monitor threats in local, and it would mean that cloaked players who are actively hunting targets would have an easier time catching their prey.

But such a change doesn’t actually fix any problem while it would also eliminate entire genres of metagaming (i.e. weaponizing pixel fear to keep locals docked, false acclimatization to mask your real active times, etc.), so I can’t say that it’s necessary.

Oh come on!!

After 5174 posts you are saying “If it ain’t broke don’t fix it??” :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: :rofl:

Profound!

+1

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Stop lying. If you wanted the ability to hunt cloaked ships you wouldn’t keep stubbornly defending an idea that has zero chance of allowing you to engage a cloaked ship but provides a significant buff to local as a tool for avoiding PvP.

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If you admit afk pilots in local do not affect bots outside of maybe 1-3 hours, in which case they whitelist the character and get back to botting, we might get somewhere.

Naturally, I’m only stating being invincible isn’t good for the game.
The same way people complain about tethering, POS shields, invul cores which provide such a state.
But bring up cloaking and wanting it to be a little more dangerous?
Ask for a opportunities for active-ish counter play?
You know, things that make the game a little more active (which provides more content)

Someone will just say I don’t know what I’m talking about,
that I have no proof,
that botting and RMT are stopped by being in local,
that I’m anything but a lowsec pilot looking for fights,
that I bot/RMT,
that I’m just scared of a camper,
that any changes to cloaking kills X playstyle,
that being afk in a system is a legit tactic against others and should never change,
or anything else that’s repeated verbatim… it just makes my goals easier. Thanks.

We could make it harder to warp away and get safe, which would keep all players on the field and keep engagements happening, but that won’t happen, too many risk adverse pvpers out there. They are very skittish when they smell the chance of losing their ship.
We could make the rewards for being out in space better, but limiting how frequently you could get those rewards while upping the speed you get them, but that won’t happen, if only because CCP can’t seem to solve the botting problem they don’t seem to want to solve.
We could make some tweaks to allow delayed local for certain ships or something similar, making it easier for hunters to hunt, but that’s not good enough for some people so it will never happen.
We could actually discuss an issue that keeps many players (but not bots) from playing the game and/or has they stop playing (but not bots) but we won’t, you lot are a stubborn bunch. Only if the metrics show it’s a large enough problem will CCP act. Sources say CCP’s equivalent of “Soon” for that.

A) It isn’t a problem

B) Metrics? OK, when local failed during the chat server problems AFK cloaking went away. Cloaking did not change, no module changed, no mechanic changed. Only local changed, and the only reason you can affect someone by being AFK is because of perfect intel from local.

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Stop lying. You have already explicitly stated that your system will not make cloaking more dangerous for active players, and inactive players will just log off instead of cloaking. You create zero additional danger for anyone, the only effect is to make local a more effective tool for avoiding PvP.

We could actually discuss an issue that keeps many players (but not bots) from playing the game

If AFK cloaking keeps you from playing the game then you and/or your alliance suck at EVE and you should go back to highsec. Pandering to failed renter trash alliances is not good for the game.

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Okay, then let cloaked ships target and shoot while maintaining their cloak.

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You keep saying this like you really want people to believe it.

Covert ops vessels are not Invincible, they just are able switch out their ability to do pretty much anything else, to be non targetable/scannable.

There are other ways of catching cloakers, or defending against them. Just because the one way you want to do it (scan them and warp to them) is not an option, does not mean the game should be changed.

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You’ve not spent much time AFK cloaking to inspire pixel fear, have you? Let me give you a primer.

  1. Get yourself into your target system. (This is often harder than it sounds, and often gets overlooked by the “NERF AFK CLOAKING!” crowd.)

  2. Make some attempt to attack a miner/ratter in local. It makes no difference if you are successful or not. Bonus points: light a covert cyno in plain sight of one of the locals, even if you know nobody is jumping to it.

  3. Cloak up at a safe and go AFK.

  4. After X hours away, repeat steps 2 and 3, preferably varying X so as not to be predictable. Bonus points: interject a little random chatter in local every so often, sometimes when you go visible, sometimes when you don’t.

After a few days of this, the locals will have no idea what to expect of you other than to know that you are at least at your keyboard enough to be a potential threat. Against small groups without much PvP support, or larger groups who’s PvP support clashes with your active times, this can be quite effective at shutting down mineral/ISK generation. And yes, it involves putting yourself at risk on occasion to show the locals that you’re a threat, otherwise, just like you indicated, they whitelist you, ignore you, and all of your effort is for naught.

Simply being AFK cloaked in system is a surprisingly ineffective way to inspire pixel fear. Yeah, it can work sometimes for a while, but it’s not all that reliable, especially past the first day or so. You need to couple it with letting the locals see you and know that you’re a threat in order to truly weaponize it.

Now, mind you, most of my experience doing this was years ago, and largely against actual players. Bots often react in a similar fashion, but without knowing which bot construct you’re dealing with you have no way of knowing how effective you will be. But even if it’s not as effective against bots as it is against humans, it does still effect them.

(Incidentally, “pixel fear” is a term I picked up from this thread. I’m not sure who came up with it, but it’s a perfect description of how weaponized AFK cloaking works. Thanks to you intrepid capsuleer.)

I’m discussing a ship in space that cannot be engaged and remains in permanent safety while gaining varying boons for no effort. I don’t want that safety to be permanent, and by making a simple change such as Adding heat generation to cloaking devices to limit their extended use it helps the hunters, takes away needless safety from the game and has the added bonus of resolving an issue that has removed many players from the game.

Looking for content, looking to keep players playing and looking to shake up the game a little at the expense of the afk cloaking business going away would be a win win, for everyone but those in the business. This is what you are scared of losing. This is why you post. This is why you claim there is no issue. You can only keep lying for so long, but I can keep telling the truth forever.

Already the common defenders have appeared, with their predictable if not letter for letter response. Don’t take the bait, it doesn’t help your message. Don’t act like a bot on the forums.

I did think that was a solution, but it removes aspects of the device that people like. I now seek to put a timer of sorts, via heat generation so there is danger in remaining cloaked, not perfect safety.

I’ve lost count of how many ships with cloaks have escaped through no effort or skill, but just a button press. All it does is deny content, and the cloak should allow the pilot a better chance of getting away. Instead the pilot just sees danger, heads to a random celestial, maybe then back to a personal bookmark they just made and just sits there waiting for us to go to sleep.
Engaging gameplay you lads want to keep.
Why?

On why the tactic requires no input for positive rewards?

By doing so when the targets are not playing. Easy. Or use covert cyno to bring in ship. That works too.
I’d heard the stories, even the most heavily camped gates in the game don’t stop this.
2 doesn’t do anything outside of likely getting your ship destroyed (Hell if the dude was afk at the time, it actually doesn’t do ANYTHING).
3 and 4 following have you stating a no effort tactic should provide benefits and it should stay that way.
That by not playing, you should get benefits that harm active players and their activities from your perfect safety.

I just want a chance to shoot a ship that thinks he’s safe while cloaked. The only fear here is the implementation of that danger. It doesn’t matter to me if there’s a hostile in my lowsec pocket, but it does matter to others. What matters here is I cannot engage a target that is out in space.

By removing players from the game, thus removing content generation.
This is not a positive thing. To argue otherwise shows short shortsightedness at the very least.

As an offensive tool, it’s good for weakening an area before you try to move in an take it. Why are we allowing a no effort tactic that can be done by one guy and however many alts he can manage to affect the game in this way? Is it the desire to have as much of a one sided match as possible, and isn’t that why people keep forming mega alliances in an era where distance doesn’t really matter?

Or do we say the in game sandbox is fine, everything’s fine, player count isn’t down, unrestricted player activity isn’t rampant + damaging the game and we don’t need some simple changes to put us back on the right track?

Without being blind, it is impossible to see the issue as a non-issue.
Not everyone posts about problems they experience, not everyone posts here about said issues and not everyone cares enough to bother, they just leave.
Yet with so little input, we’ve got untold repeat topics, threads, comments and more on the issue of cloaking in the game.
I’ve asked and put forward a very middle ground idea, one that only hurts the perma afk. The people who aren’t playing. We don’t need people to not play eve, but to play it.

Show me the data proving that AFK camping of the kind I’m talking about, or how being able to perma-cloak in general, removes players from the game and I may start taking you seriously.

(No really, if you have this kind of data, I’d love to see it.)

Also, I’d just like to point out, that, according to the tactics I outlined, there is at least occasional content. Moreso if the locals have the will and/or ability to mount a proper defense force. So by eliminating that style of gameplay, you’d actually be removing some content.

Over a decade of discussion, and apparently CCP based on their inaction on this topic within that time, seem to disagree with you.

Let me state this again for emphasis: the benefits to AFK cloaking are entirely out-of-game. Either you are part of an intel-collection network running off of third party programs and public data from the EvE client, or you are messing with the heads of locals. There is no direct gameplay advantage to cloaking for long periods of time over cloaking for a few minutes. How can you possibly justify a change to in-game mechanics that only have out-of-game impacts?

You cannot patch human psychology.

(I could maybe see a change to how the client-provided data used by third party software for intel-collection works, but that’s a separate topic.)