Main AFK cloaky thread

[Derath_Ellecon]

@Ridley_Rohan

I don’t see how it makes them 100 percent safe.

Since you always like to nitpick to the extreme, how about 99.999999% safe. Anyone with half a brain has local on their screen exactly so they can see when someone enters. No it may not flast but put in a prominent spot it does catch your eye. Now granted how many people may get caught there are likely plenty with less than half a brain.

It doesn’t change the fact that local yields perfect intel of who is occupying a system.

@Ridley_Rohan

Are you saying that an AFK timer for cloaks will screw all the other cloak users? If so I have to tell you, as a cloak user, I won’t feel screwed. I will feel inconvenienced.

It has yet to be shown that AFK timers are even necessary. Beyond that whether such a timer would even be the appropriate solution.

I mean heck, I’ve stayed AFK cloaked in a WH for hours plenty of times. Nobody is even complaining about that kind of cloaking.

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Ridley_Rohan

They are just there and if you were not paying fairly close attention, you don’t get the memo.

If you aren’t able to pay attention to local then you suck at EVE and should probably quit. We’re talking about an extremely minimal level of competence at basic EVE tasks.

You don’t even get a flashing background.

You don’t need it. Every single blue player is highlighted for you, if a non-blue name appears you dock.

@Ridley_Rohan

But I don’t agree with your constraints.

Then you are wrong. Any idea which does not provide an alternative way to mitigate local is unacceptable, and the players have already collectively rejected the removal of local. So AFK cloaking can not be changed.

[Ridley_Rohan]

@Derath_Ellecon

It has yet to be shown that AFK timers are even necessary. Beyond that whether such a timer would even be the appropriate solution.

Here we go again. Look man, nothing has to be necessary and ideas don’t need to be solutions. Things can be more interesting, better, more fair, more consistent, more reasonable, more rational, easier to understand, follow or learn and all sorts of other things.

So long as you stay fixed on the ideas that everythign must either be 1) a solution to a problem or 2) necessary you just hand the braindead on this forum a bludgeon to attack people who just want to discuss ideas and possibilites.

Just for review:

@Wadiest_Yong

You hit the weakness in the Ideas section.

Look up under the thread title where it shows the section. It says “Player features and ideas” NOT “Necessary solutions to EVE problems (and you better have proof!)”.

[Ridley_Rohan]

@Skriven_Penshar

how about you are warped away and logged off just as you do when you safe log.

Sure. Pretty sure I mentioned that earlier. Not every aspect has to change. The consistency of such a thing is great and fine by me.

But others insisted there be risk, so I added risk.

@Skriven_Penshar

I AFK cloak sometimes and I’m playing the game. I’m playing the game in the same way a player docked up in a station is playing the game.

What I quoted is NOT playing the game and everything else you said after that was totally unrelated to AFK and involves playing the game!

To be quite honest I don’t want to react to ghosts. Who does? Do you? I am here to play against players and the AI, not potentially waste time or make a bad decision because of a ghost.

I get the point that at present AFK cloaking is a way to combat botters (and maybe some other unwanted folks) but on other than that, why should active players have to suffer a ghost in system? Is that so great for EVE?

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Ridley_Rohan

I am here to play against players and the AI, not potentially waste time or make a bad decision because of a ghost.

If you make a bad decision it’s your own fault. And you don’t know that the player was AFK, so what is your problem? Maybe they were active and you did exactly what you needed to do to survive.

Is that so great for EVE?

Not really, which is part of why CCP offered a solution that removed AFK cloaking entirely. But nullbear farmers rioted over the removal of local, so here we are. It’s not ideal but the only viable solution has been considered and rejected.

[Derath_Ellecon]

@Ridley_Rohan

Here we go again. Look man, nothing has to be necessary and ideas don’t need to be solutions. Things can be more interesting, better, more fair, more consistent, more reasonable, more rational, easier to understand, follow or learn and all sorts of other things.

Here we go again. Look man, if you want to throw out any idea, no matter how appropriate it might be, you are welcome to do so.

Presumably people post in here with the overall goal of catching the eye of someone at CCP. If that is the case, something that will significantly change a gameplay mechanic really needs to be more than just a basic idea. It needs to solve a problem, or extend some functionality, etc.

@Ridley_Rohan

So long as you stay fixed on the ideas that everythign must either be 1) a solution to a problem or 2) necessary you just hand the braindead on this forum a bludgeon to attack people who just want to discuss ideas and possibilites.

Only if you are one of those types who believe words are violence. For the rest of us heated vigorous debate is the best way to percolate the best ideas to the surface.

[you_are_evil]

@Wadiest_Yong

After X hours of cloaking in the same system/constellation/whatever the cloaky loses access to local chat

Very naive. I scanned Olmeca a few times on his logins (He was lazy and always started far too many clients to be able to cloak in time. ), he always positioned himself in the middle of the map/between the site spot areas, so he could just run a Dscan grabber. No local necessary.
Some of his alts were around the jump beacons at 15-20km too. So you could use Overview Alert. As I said, many solutions that do not need a local.

To that, you want to know the ship types to drop on it, so a local is no help.

[Skriven_Penshar]

@Ridley_Rohan

I get the point that at present AFK cloaking is a way to combat botters (and maybe some other unwanted folks) but on other than that, why should active players have to suffer a ghost in system?

Because cloaks are part of the game. Why should I suffer ships I can’t d-scan (combat recons) which could warp on me unannounced? Because they are part of the game. And they don’t have a targeting delay like a cloaky ship does.

@Ridley_Rohan

Is that so great for EVE?

Is that so bad? Honest question.

@Ridley_Rohan

• This is a breeding ground for ideas. If someone has an idea, listen to it. If you don’t like it, think about why.
• Constructive feedback is good.
• Posting “That’s an awful idea,” is not constructive.

People get frustrated with the same old complaints and same old ideas, even when those ideas seem new. In reality while some of your ideas may seem new, or unique (and they may be unique) they are in fact pretty damn close to what has been offered up again and again.

@Ridley_Rohan

Incidentally I did not read a thing you said for I don’t even know how many posts now. I learned its better not to. But you keep responding directly to me anyway.

You need to stop taking it so personal. Even if directed at you be like Elsa and “Let it go”. Only you can give them the power to piss you off. And if you’re taking part in the forum, throwing out ideas then you better read the responses. Otherwise say goodbye and leave. You are the one who posted your “ideas”. We are the ones who are debating them with you and pointing out their merits/flaws. If you can’t take criticism keep ypur fingers away from the keyboard.

@Derath_Ellecon

It has yet to be shown that AFK timers are even necessary. Beyond that whether such a timer would even be the appropriate solution.

Show the facts that AFK cloaking is a problem. And I will go out on a limb here and say that an inconvenience to someones game-play is not a problem. I know, I know…this is a place for “ideas”. But usually you come up with an idea to fix a problem or make something better (I.E. Fix a problem).

So here’s my idea. Instead of getting rid of local why not just remove players from local who are cloaked. When they decloak they show back up. When cloaked their name doesn’t show, but they do show in the count for local. So if there are 3 people in the local count, but you are the only name showing in chat, you know there are 2 people out there cloaking. But this is just a stupid idea which would improve nothing. Removing them from local completely would be a better idea. Kind of a “Wormhole Lite” local

[Skriven_Penshar]

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

[image] These are based on Akita T’s Golden rules for new players, originally published on the old forums. Be able to afford a loss Never fly something (or with something in the cargo) you can’t afford to lose. Yes, not even in highsec. Meaning that you should not fly a ship you cannot afford to replace and refit. Consent to PvP You consent to PvP when you click “undock”. You are not safe in 1.0 security space. CONCORD is there to punish, not to protect. Get used to the idea. In most case…

Left this rabbit hole for a bit to find this wonderful nugget. Always good to reread on occasion. Especially these little nuggets which seem to pertain somewhat to the issue some have with AFK cloaking: (I’ve highlighted the relevant points)

You consent to PvP when you click “undock”.

• You are not safe in 1.0 security space. CONCORD is there to punish, not to protect. Get used to the idea.
• In most cases, the only way to be 100% safe from aggression inside the game is to be docked in a station. Being cloaked in a secret safespot could work too.

Scamming and unethical behavior some would consider griefing is not only allowed, it is encouraged and rewarded by the game mechanics.

Unfair circumstances?

• There is no such thing as “a fair fight” or “an unfair fight”. There’s only a fight. Circumstances are irrelevant.
• Just because you can fly something doesn’t mean you should.

[Wadiest_Yong]

@you_are_evil

Very naive. I scanned Olmeca a few times on his logins … etc

Yeah, exactly, that’s one of the counters that I remember posting somewhere months ago. We did eliminate a perma-cloaky that way in the B-W pocket in Provi. He had been there for many days, every day from dt to dt. We got him, we even reciprocated with cloaky campers in Catch at the time, just to make the message crystal clear (which is another counter, they were within portal range).

Nah, the appropriateness of “no local for the cloaky” depends more on the size of the system. If his only defense is dscan, and the system is large enough he can be blindsided, not knowing if he’s being hunted or by what. In small systems that would, as you highlighted, not work because of dscan. My initial thought was to not make the penalty on a cloaky too harsh, and take away only local. Of course, if one would take away dscan instead, then it’s as good as game over for the cloaky, he would not be able to do his job by staying AFK and would be slightly more vulnerable. So would disabling his cloak altogether, but that is a totally wrong avenue. Countering cloakies is and should be a game of wits. And cloakies are a necessary element in the biotope.

It’s more a question of an exchange in the sense of “wouldn’t it be fun for both sides if someone added this new element into the gameplay”. Sometimes it would, sometimes it wouldn’t, depending on view point or nature of the suggestion.

Fighting over ideas or suggestions is a bit silly, they should not be matters of personal pride. Anyone can toss out any suggestion I made, they carry no real weight in any case. Nor do anyone else’s…

Here’s a quote from a book I recently re-read, The Name of the Rose, by Eco. The author would have been a great EvE player:

“But those were times when, to forget an evil world, grammarians took pleasure in abstruse questions. I was told that in that period, for fifteen days and fifteen nights, the rhetoricians Gabundus and Terentius argued on the vocative of “ego” and in the end they attacked each other, with weapons.”

[MB_ThePhotographer]

Now I have a reason to go to Iceland! To watch all these people meet in person!

[Wadiest_Yong]

I like how you’re thinking

[Ridley_Rohan]

I AFK cloak plenty.

Is it necessarily a huge problem that needs solved immediately cause its breaking EVE?

I don’t think so.

Is it cheesy in a way I would like to see disappear?

In my opinion, yes.

Will it be easy to change?

Obviously no.

Should we give up and decide it will be impossible to change for all time and must stay as is?

Again, obviously no.

Will other changes be desirable if AFK cloaking is changed somehow?

Most likely. So even more ideas can be talked about.

Will all this talk lead to nothing to matter how good some ideas are?

Most likely. So relax.

[Wadiest_Yong]

Snapshot. To everyone’s horror he turns out to be back ATK, decloaked and attacking !! So he was a former AFK cloaker. Or was it a former cloaker only pretending to be AFK ? This game can be so confusing at times
Anyhooo, it was in reference to MB’s

@MB_ThePhotographer

Then you slam them

which requires some activity, yes. I especially appreciated the

@MB_ThePhotographer

I didn’t even bother to kill them. Involuntary bowel movements were enough for me…

which for me is the real essence of the fun of (solo) cloaky hunting. Yeah, that’s not afk cloaking. We segued

[Salt_Foambreaker]

@Skriven_Penshar

@Ridley_Rohan

No one would be complaining if there were certainty a player was AFK and next to his name in local it actually said “AFK” until he wasn’t anymore

No one would complain because that would do away with AFK cloaking.

That would do nothing.

The AFK tag would go away when the cyno popped or the attack starts.

In fact it would add a false sense of security, lets say it came on after 15 minutes. That doesn’t mean the player is not right there watching the screen, ready to pounce.

[Viviana_Johanson]

Looking through this thread, it seems the Devs team from CCP cannot hear our voice due to players from the “free awards afk cloakly team” burying great ideas to help to resolve this issue. Gerard Amatin comment from May 11th 2020 is correct and I agree with his first paragraph. AFK cloakly campers are a real issue, it makes the game unbalanced which they take away the enjoyment from the game since there is nothing you can do to counter them. (And the new Abyssal weather is not a fix, it is a feature and has nothing to do to fix the balance of cloakly campers.) For example, there is an AFK Cloakly camper in a system, and they ask 5 bil isk per system for one month so they will leave the system alone. That is extortion and with that they can pay for the free Plex, skill injects and/or buy sub/cap ships for other new alts, at the same time other systems spreading that across New Eden. That just ruins the fun for everyone.

There are a few more ideas to help with the balance WITHOUT braking Black Ops ships (movement or mission). Please keep in mind when I say “period of time” or “over-time” I mean hours, like 3 - 5 hours or 2 – 4 hours (that is up to CCP).
Yes, having a new RSS probe that can scan down cloakly ships. The longer the ship stays in one spot or near the same place for a long period of time, the easier it is to find and scan them down. Think of it as a “radiation“ hotspot that continues to increase remains in the same area. However of course, that afk camper “could” just warp to other location in space but by doing so causes a spike in “radiation“ signature when they land, or it hold its “radiation“ hotspot to the new land location. To release the “radiation” hotspot is by de-cloaking and maybe having a penalty of some kind. Also, a safe log will not help to reduce penalty time or radiation.

Another idea is to have ship’s capacitor slowly drain, again over time. No matter how much you are cap stable or if you have a cap booster (after de-cloaking), you will not able to restore it till the penalty timer is over. You can call it “silent running” where the EMF from the capacitor can give out its location, and there should be a cool-down or penalty where you cannot cloak back immediately after de-cloaking.

My last idea is when you hold cloak (again, over a period), more radiation builds up within the ship and holds it. The more radiations build up the more damage it can do to your ship’s modules, either overheats your high slots or all your slots. By de-cloaking the radiation is released and again, a cool-down/penalty should be applied so the ship cannot cloak back immediately after de-cloaking.

In the end, cool-downs or penaltys should applied so the campers cannot cloak back immediately after, and gives the defenders a chance to even the playing field.

CCP I really to hope you are reading this message and I hope this is able to plant some doubts about AFK Campers and understand our annoyance from players like myself.

*removed political commentary. - ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

[Derath_Ellecon]

@Viviana_Johanson

Looking through this thread, it seems the Devs team from CCP cannot hear our voice

I guarantee the devs have heard all of the arguments. They haven’t changed in over 10 years.

@Viviana_Johanson

AFK cloakly campers are a real issue, it makes the game unbalanced which they take away the enjoyment from the game since there is nothing you can do to counter them.

An AFK player needs no counter.

Your defense for anytime a player is in system is the same. Fly smart.

It doesn’t matter if it is a cloaky ship trying to get you directly. All except the paper thin stealth bomber is going to have at least a 5 second delay before they can even start targetting you. An aligned ship will warp instantly whether it is a frigate or a supercap.

Even if they are just going to warp in to light a cyno, Even the fastest players still take time. When the cyno goes up the ships need to right click and jump, and then load grid. An aligned ship will still warp away in time.

How do I know. I always fly aligned. I haven’t lost a PVE ship in forever, aside from my very early days. A combination of dscan and being aligned I have gotten away from numerous attempts over the years.

Removed previously deleted quote and reply. -ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

[Scoots_Choco]

@Viviana_Johanson

RSS probe that can scan down cloakly ships

@Viviana_Johanson

have ship’s capacitor slowly drain

@Viviana_Johanson

more radiation builds up

@Viviana_Johanson

overheats your high slots or all your slots

Every single one of your suggestions has already been discussed in this thread multiple times each.

[Ridley_Rohan]

@Derath_Ellecon

I guarantee the devs have heard all of the arguments. They haven’t changed in over 10 years.

This thread begins with a mention of observatory arrays which were meant to combat cloakers which is something CCP was seriously considering. Stop acting like CCP has never thought of changing this dynamic. They have and they have considered it quite seriously. We could debate until the cows come home why nothing has been implimented YET, but its quite enough that CCP has played with such ideas and we here in the idea section wish to continue having ideas.

I am sorry ideas are so very threatening to you. For the sake of your nerves you should probably just ignore this thread. Constant terror can lead to things like heart disease you know.

[I_m_the_Bendu]

Just so I am completely clear. I do not think cloaky camping is a problem. I do not think it is cheating. I do believe it is a valid gameplay style and a highly effective form of psychological warfare. However, I do think AFK cloaky camping is a problem through the effective exploitation of an imbalanced mechanic; the perpetual input free cloak. I contend that it receive the same consideration and attention that many AFK ‘activities’ have as of late.

The attention generated by my reddit post on this subject has compelled me to take up the cause of bringing balance to the cloak. Not because I hate scarebears, or because I favor carebears, but because I am both, but favor neither. To quote Star Wars “Jedi and Sith wield the Ashla and Bogan. The light and the dark. I’m the one in the middle. The Bendu.”