Maybe you did already posit this solution. If I missed it my bad, this thread can move pretty fast. And I am sure it is a re-tread. As mentioned before when you have a thread 7000+ posts long pretty much every idea has already been brought up multiple times.
Nowhere in my recent post have I attacked you as a person. I merely pointed out a truth about debate and discussion. It is neither positive or negative, it just is. Yet you come back still with the guns blazing personal attacks.
Just chill, learning to move past difficult interactions, brushing off those chips on your shoulder will do wonders for your overall health.
Iâm not sure I agree.
So say you are truly AFK (so you are not moving, nor are you using dscan or other tools to find where your âvictimâ is in system). Once you come back to the keyboard you instantly pop back into local. But that would be no different from popping through a WH connection or gate. You would still have to find your victim and try and warp to them.
There is really no way you would be able to pop back into local by switching back to not-afk and instantly be on top of someone. I mean i guess if you already warped close to them and then went afk. but in that case there would be also a decent chance they would get close enough to you to decloak while you are afk, and kill you.
A delay would only make the problem worse. A delay would in fact allow someone to go afk, then come back, quickly dscan to determine where someone is and get into warp before popping back into local.
If itâs not a problem, then we shouldnât change it. Problem solved.
Itâs obvious that youâre just trying to play semantics here, but the point still stands.
Youâre proposing a change to the status quo, and when asked âwhy should it be changed?â youâre dodging the question and playing semantics.
I donât want to assume what he meant here, but my understanding/thought is that the delay would be in the cloaky pilotâs ability to do anything once it was determined they are no longer AFK. So once the pilot tried to d-scan, move in space or warp they would not be able to for a period of time. Say a 1 minute âget the ship out of hibernationâ delay. Maybe a possibility for a new skill that could lessen the delay time, or new rigs/modules to allow a ship to spin up faster.
The big question is how do you determine when a pilot is AFK. Ship moving? I could align to a point in space and just go AFK. Clicking modules, points in space or menu items (Notepad, Market, etc)? Easily scripted, but potential to be banned as a bot. After x hours if your ship has not moved/changed flight pattern you disappear from Local, go into hibernation and then have to wait through the delay before doing anything? But this is also something which could be worked around by a bot.
Anyway, thatâs what I think he meant by a delay. May never know since heâs muted me
Totally agree
Maybe. But everyoneâs perception of âperfectâ is their own unless we can come to a consensus quantitatively about âperfectionâ for a thing.
Cake is good. Cake with ice cream would be perfect! Unless you donât like ice cream.
In that case youâre going to say âIce cream is not good! Keep your ice cream away from my cake!â And under no circumstance would someone expect that person to come up with an idea to make it OK to have cake with ice cream.
You offered ice cream (changes to how cloaks work) to go with the cake (how cloaks work now). Many here are perfectly fine with just cake. Some have even offered to put the ice cream in a bowl (kill local, take cloaky ships out of local).
If no one wants your ice cream donât be upset that they arenât offering up a better accompaniment to cake. Some of us think cake is perfect
The problem is that he never establishes by what metrics something could be âbetterâ.
I can say that the current ratting system could be made âbetterâ by making rats granting zero bounties and people would question, âhow does that specific change make it âbetterâ?â
Do players want the game to be âbetterâ? In a broad sense, sure. But thatâs not the issue.
The issue is better how? And heâs been dodging that issue since heâs started commenting.
My understanding is âbetterâ includes not having a cloaky pilot showing in local when they are not at the keyboard. That presence in Local can keep some people from doing what they would like to do. I know it has for me, but I take it as part of the game and move to a different system.
But that âbetterâ is someone elseâs âworseâ. And would it make it better or safer?
No, thatâs the proposed change. He doesnât explain why or how that specific change is âbetterâ (nor by what metrics heâs using to measure âbetterâ). Heâs been playing semantics to try and dodge the issue and confuse people who are reading his comments.
See, the problem is that itâs not part of the game. That fear your carebears feel? Thatâs from you. Itâs all psychological from within the playerâs own cowardice.
Nothing about the game keeps you from doing something they would like to do.
I donât see what this has to do with the discussion at hand.
Nope, sorryâŚit was meant to be a general comment.
This has been covered before in this thread and its predecessors on prior versions of this forum. Some players dislike uncertainty. AFK Cloakers represent uncertainty. To those who dislike uncertainty they assume that the cloaker is never AFK and thus is a threat 24/7.
This also fits with players who are loss averse vs. just the standard risk averse (all players are risk averse to varying degrees, we all try not to take undue risk based on our personal tolerance for risk - e.g., if you use a scout you are risk averse or they play smart). What this means is that to these players losses are much greater than equivalent gains. That is suppose we have a loss averse ratter. Yesterday he earned say 100 million ISK ratting. But today he loses his ratting ship which happens to cost 100 ISK million. Most players would say, âWell at least I broke even,â but a loss averse player would see the situation as a negative outcome.
Players who cannot tolerate uncertainty and/or are loss averse should consider leaving NS or looking for a different group. Uncertainty is really a player problem. It is up to the sov holder to address uncertainty. Intel channels are a method to addressing uncertainty. A standing fleet to respond to attacks is a method for addressing uncertainty. Gate camps into pockets are a method for addressing uncertainty. Prior to the war Goons had a capital umbrella for players ratting and mining in large ships, again a method of addressing uncertainty.
This has all been gone over again and again. Those who are against AFK cloaking will have issues with my pointing out the uncertainty angle and loss aversion. Theyâll claim it isnât the issue, but it is pretty apparent it is the issue.
Ok that might make more sense, however I would not be a fan of a system that locked you out of the controls for a period of time. Especially for example if it happened after decloaking. A even half decent combat prober can lock and warp to you in under a minute.
Personally as I mentioned in my previous post I donât see it being an issue. Unless you somehow go afk on grid with your target coming back from AFK you will still have a period of time that you have to assess the system and find the target. The target has the same amount of warning they would have if you popped into local after jumping into the system.
The only way would be via player input.
Correct. It can be circmumvented, however thatâs already against the EULA, as previously mentioned.
Actually there is a delay when coming through a gate. You show up instantly, but you cannot do anything for very short period of time. So local already gives a home field advantage. If you pop up in local and are not blue, I have a very small window to start getting safe while you are still loading grid. I donât know about a wormhole havenât checked how that works, but wouldnât be surprised if it works like a gate.
This really underscores the uncertainty/loss aversion element here, IMO. Technically the guy is still there, but now you donât see him and the feeling of uncertainty is gone. Unless of course you see him vanish from local. Now these players will wonderâŚdid he log? Did he leave system? Or is he really there but now I donât know!!!
Yes there is a delay when entering system/grid. The delay is similar whether you jump through a WH, jump thru a cyno, or jump through a gate.
by the same token if a player in this scenario comes back after being afk and pops back to local, its not like they can immediately warp to you.
Are you at an anom? at least one dscan (minimum) to figure out which anom. And then that only says where you are. Are you at zero on the beacon or 100km off? One example but should illustrate the general situation.
FirstâŚenough with the name calling. Iâm not a carebear. Youâre a carebear.
Secondly, taking into account who is in the system with you and determining whether you want to risk running a relic site is completely part of the game. Iâd argue it is the game.
Iâve been in a system with multiple relic sites and one other pilot, no where to be found, and from his killboard I can see that he flies cloaked and lights cynos or is just something I donât want to take a chance with.
That I choose to move on doesnât make me a carebear, it just makes me a cautious player. If I was a carebear Iâd be on here whining about how I donât know where the cloaky pilot is while docked up in a hi-sec station.
You are assuming he is truly AFK. What if the player is merely not interacting with the client and then disappears from local? If you are sitting there and at the citadel the player docked up in once you disappear from local you just watch and see what anom he warps too.
Well yes that is a good point. It could depend on the AFK timeout as well. If itâs like an hour, it takes some determination to sit there not touching the computer for an hour just to hopefully catch that guy undocking so you can hopefully see which anom they warp to, considering just spinning the camera to watch will pop you back into local.
And to be fair, I am firmly in the camp that believes the status quo is fine. So Iâd rather see no change.
But if there was a change I would be happier with this than any of the other proposals.
Why arenât you using the handy dandy heat map zkill provides to see when he is typically active?
That is the heat map for this guy,
I can look at that and already get a pretty good idea if he is AFK or not. In fact, he has lots of these guysâŚlooking across his alts conveniently with similar names gives a really good indicator.
And to be honest most of the time Iâm not in a system long enough to worry about AFK people. Most of the time I just move into another empty system and go on my way. I think things are fine the way they are. Just trying to be constructive in my criticism
Actaully no. I go to my kitchen, set the oven timer for 60 minutes, then do something else for that hour. When it is up I come back and watch for as long as I want too.
And again, I am less happy when CCP does something to pat someoneâs poo-poo vs. letting the players do it when that possibility already exists. The zkill heat map already provides some pretty good intel.
Not to make you feel badâŚits been there for sometime. And strictly speaking with excel and the information on zkill one could have made their own for years.
So we already have an indicator of likely AFK/ATK statusâŚ
Regardless, you still have to spend an hour letting your computer sit idle, and then sit there hoping someone is gonna eventually undock. And then hope you have your camera set so you can see where they go without touching anything.
If someone puts in that amount of effort Iâll give them a GF in local.
