Marauders - Fittings for Maximum Damage Application

I see a lot of discussion on this forum, reddit, and even in game where people push their paper numbers up as high as possible, and think the damage they get on the ingame fitting screen is what they are doing. There is also contention regarding which Marauder is the best Marauder, and that some Marauders are the ugly child (Paladin) where they certainly are not and one love-child has been looked upon with rose tinted glasses (Vargur).

I have been working on a series of Marauder fits, which I am sure won’t be alien to many vets out there but with a deluge of new Marauder pilots I have compiled a guide below. In each comment I will discuss the most optimal way of fitting each Marauder for maximal damage application. If you want a cap stable fit, turn your brain off and just throw on some cap mods.

The skeleton fits I provide are additionally relevant for polarised fits, if thats what you want to do, as the damage distributions will remain the same, you will simply do a hell of a lot more damage.

(please bare with me as the forum does not transfer image data if I format outside - 03.04.2021 I have included Golem and Kronos fits, over the next couple of days I will add Paladin and Vargur too)

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1) GOLEM

I can say that you can right off the bat rule out using Javelin torpedoes because the difference between Rage and Javelin is negligable when it comes to smaller targets, I would suggest only using javs if you are out of range;

Using 4x BCU, each ammo provides the following damage curve against a moving target of the indicated size-

I will not demonstrate that target painters, guidance enhancers and comps, and rigs will increase application as they all provide a flat percentage increase based on explosion radius or velocity, so the increase in application is relative and the magnitude difference remains the same, you will simply see the application displaced higher. So you should only use Javelin torpedoes to attract NPC’s outside of Rage range, which can be extended with comps, enhancers, rigs, etc.

With that demonsrated, and for your reading ease (and also to save me some time from continuously explaining why Javelin torpedoes are redundant) I will continue the post looking exclusively at the damage application of Rage torpedoes…

4 BCU’s is in my opinion, overkill due to stacking penalties. Fitting just three BCU’s and one Guidance Enhancer increases your damage application in all cases than using 4 BCU’s (Below you can see clearly that theoretical DPS is slipping as we remove damage mods in favour of application mods). This pattern is applicable to turret ships too, and generally, most modules (try and fit them in a 3a+1b config rather than a configuration of 4a)

Having established the best low slot configuration, we can move onto the best mid slots to use as these will give the next best increase in “real world” damage. Moving forward, we will assume that the Golem is using 3xBCU and 1x GE in its low slots.

The following damage curve is generated against two Golems; one using a Target Painter II, and the other using a Missile Guidance Computer II with a Precision Script-

You can see that the target painter and precision script Golems have increased their damage application to both targets, but there is no advantage between one or the other when attacking a battleship. The target painter wins out against smaller targets, (I have not included a BC target but the difference is markedly larger, again with the target painter winning) so when choosing between a GC or a TP; take the TP.

Fitting either (2x GC + 1x TP), or (1x GC + 2x TP) you get an identical distribution, with no effect against a battleship but nearly 200 extra DPS against a cruiser sized target. In conclusion, you should always use a target painter on a Golem over a Guidance computer IF you are looking at damage application.

I would generally advise fitting at least one GC though for range, using target painters to apply damage.

Moving on to Rigs, which generally offer the lowest return, we will assume you are using 2x target painters and 1x GC.

If you want to fit more than this, the most optimal way of applying damage is to use 3x TP and 1x GC, although using 2x TP should be sufficient, and you could use 2x GC with range scripts. We are at the point where anything we add now will have zero effect against battleships, which pool the most HP, so you need to consider whether you want to kill battleships quicker or cruisers (you only need one TP to reach maximum potential against a battleship).

To save you the reading, I can tell you now that rigors are better, despite all the signature flaring you are inflicting with your target painters, as there seems to be no stacking penalty against rigors and target painters + precision scripts. The difference is marginal (around 30 DPS with two of each), but enough to see that rigors should be fitted in place of flares (as you certainly will not be using torpedoes against fast moving frigates - you have a drone bay for that)

Below I have used three fits, one Golem is fitted with 2x Rigor II, and the other with a Calefaction II and 1x Rigor I, the final is fitted for more theoretical DPS using the rigs with 1x Loading Bay Accelerator I, and 1x Calefaction Catalyst I. We are now seeing the dilemma where you need to choose between more damage against battleships, or more damage against cruisers/battlecruisers.

It is evident that using the Calefaction and Rigor fit Golem you will do more damage against battleships than even the one fit for theoretical DPS. The theoretical DPS fit Golem is wanting against cruisers (it still does a significant amount of damage but isn’t as good as the other two). The 2x rigor fit Golem is the best at dealing with smaller targets, but you loose out on around 150 dps against battleships, which as stated earlier, are generally the largest pool of HP.

I would recommend the Golem fitted with a calefaction II and a rigor I, as gaining +150 dps against battleships will work through the net HP faster than the 150 dps lost against the cruisers. With that in mind, below is the fit you would use to maximise DPS potential of the Golem. I have left the mid slots you would use for tank and propulsion empty, so you have four slots free to play with.

[Golem, Golem - Max Damage Application - Skeleton Fit]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Missile Guidance Enhancer II

Target Painter II
Target Painter II
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

Torpedo Launcher II, Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Scourge Rage Torpedo
Bastion Module I
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Large Warhead Calefaction Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

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2) Kronos

The Kronos, like the Paladin, arguably has two viable turret systems to use; railguns or blasters. I used to defend fervently the honour of the rail Kronos, I wont bore you with an analysis, but within 45km, the blaster Kronos is superior to the rail, with the diminishing application from a rail fit within 45km being significantly worse than the diminishing application beyond 45km of a blaster fit.

Unlike the Golem, damage mods are an interesting component here, where 4 damage mods increases the damage against BS sigs but 3 and an enhancer is better against smaller hulls.

As you can see, beyond 12km, an enhancer is the better choice. You could of course, switch to Null. In which case, 4 magnetic field stabs (MFS) are better than shooting void with 3+1 TE up until around 30km (when a 3+1 configuration shooting Null overtakes in damage application):

Now if you bare with me, I will show that 4 damage mods just about eeks out a superior damage application distribution, Once you make up for the shortfall with tracking computers (below I have fitted each hull with 2x t2 tracking computers loaded with an optimal range script);

Where the 4x MFS fit is now superior to 20km, and when using Null, superior to around 50km with negligible loss in comparison to an enhancer fit after that point.

An interesting diversion here is whether or not you should fit a Stasis Grappler instead of a tracking computer. (There are two remaining mid slots, but I like to reserve space for an MWD and MJD to reposition rapidly - if you know the missions well enough you can use one or the other and fit a Grappler on top of the tracking computers).
Personally, although nice to have, I would give it a miss in an all purpose fit, as you are only really seeing payoff below 10km. Below I have added grappler fits using 1TC and 4MFS:

You definitely do better on paper with a grappler, especially as most NPC’s you will fight with a Kronos like to orbit around 5km. The only caveat I should add though is that you have one grappler, and four guns, ideally ungrouped. This means that you are only dealing the additional applied DPS to 1 in 4 targets, so the difference is not that great, and I would suggest remaining with the 2xTC and 4x MFS layout we have achieved so far.

As for rigs, you do better with a single t2 rig than 2xt1 damage rigs:

With a burst aerator being superior (however eating more capacitor). Utilizing the final 100 rigging hardpoints for further damage application yields minimal returns against battleships but does significantly better against smaller targets. Personally I think its just about worthwhile, over say a cap mod or a tank rig, as you destroy things too quickly in PvE with Marauders to need to be concerned too much about your capacitor or a hefty tank:

[Kronos, Golem - Max Damage Fit - Skeleton]

[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Bastion Module I
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Large Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I

Hammerhead II x5

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Thank you very much, appreciate the work!

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WRT golem torpedoes : One problem is that the speed of torpedoes is low, therefore you are wasting salvos. depending on your fit, the distance between salvos should be around 20 km so you are wasting one salvo after 20km, 2 after 40km. That is, with navy torps , a 4s/cycle launcher , 5000 m/s torpedo speed ; rage go 4km/s so 16km is the distance per salvo. It is a problem when you eg one shot the cruisers, and they are 40km : you end up using three salvos but only one is needed, so a reduction of effective DPS by 66%

What you can do is to split your torpedoes, but then you need to also have two painters. That’s what I chose to do.

Another possibility is use an hydraulic bay thruster rig, that increases the torpedoes speed by 20%; and/or a missile guidance enhancer, in the lows. in some specific setup, using a guidance enhancer can mean more DPS than a BCS since more application and less wasted shots.

A third possibilty is to use mutate with reduced bonus in cycle duration (red) example
Imgur
Imgur

etc.

if you use decayed (2M) then apporoximatively one out of 10 will have better damage, worse ROF, and better CPU.
if you use gravid(10M), then one out of 18 would :confused:

That’s one of the cases where a decayed may be better than a gravid, and where having too much DPS is actually worse.

In my case, I made lots of mutated items, so I had the choice but most of the time you can’t really pick.

Or you can you know do what many missile users have been doing for years, count your volleys and manually stop your launchers, no more wasted volleys. Magic ain’t it?

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Yep. Missile “sniping” has the overhead of remembering a few numbers. Like for some stuff where its really bad for my tengu to be triple webbed…I come in hml fit max range and count 1,2,3,4 end cycle. On to next target. One dead BC at like 70 kms when they all land. Removes some Cruiser/BC dps off the field till the web frigates come in edit: paint range and blast them as their numbers can vary.

Case of golem tastes can differ but that imo is what drones are for. Paint the small stuff to help them out. Then put paint back on the big targets when done for torps. Drones paint assisted will have small stuff cleared fast enough assuming decent drone skills. Then put them on the big stuff too to make up for lost time.

yeah and meanwhile your painter goes where ?
Stupid more than magic.

Splitting your launchers/guns is anyhow mandatory on marauders. because there is overkill and because the delay between end of cycle and GUI updating can be up to one cycle. If you one shot the frigs, you lost say half a cycle for graphical updating so you remove 33% of your DPS. If you two shot them you multiply your delay by 2.5/2 so you lose 20% of your DPS - ignoring overkill which is reduced.

Not that I fly a Mauarder, but why not do both? Count your volleys and bring multiple painters?

Or if you notice your volley does overkill damage on the last shot, would it still be necessary to have them painted for that last shot?

because then you need to count the volleys for each group.
The issue with painter is that you need to ALSO keep the painter on the previous target.
say you kill the cruiser in 3 volleys of 2 launchers. You shoot 2 volleys, after the second you need to apply painter(we assume previous target is dead), then stop after the 3rd and switch target to the next, and do the same with the OTHER group.

painter is +62% damage IIRC.
It’s like you add 1.2 torp to the group of two.
Removing the painter is removing 38% of your DPS. Sometimes you will still finish the target ; and sometimes it will be left with 5% structure.

Even if you have to wait for the target to die so can free your painter, you should still count your volleys, there is no point in wasting ammo if you know how many shots are needed to kill it.

Also you shouldn’t be firing torps at frigs anyway, that is what drones are for.

No.
It goes too fast to count the ammos per group AND keep track on the painters AND manage the drones to put them on the frigs (actually destroyers first) AND select the target by distance

I did a ded5 in 13min excluding warpin( actual 15 min including warpin), that’s at least 68 rats so average 11.5 seconds per rat (but since I have to groups it means I shoot the rats average 23 s). And I failed several time at selecting the targets (using rage instead of navy on arrival), and also I failed the drifts.

Counting the salvos per group is just stupid nonsense. Torps are free anyhow, only a scrooge would look at the price of a few wasted salvos. The problem is with the loss in DPS, not in the price which is too low to be a concern.

Hi guys, I am currently in the midst of coursework submissions and exams, as well as a massive research project at work. I will be adding to the thread later in the week. Please bare with me. There are three more major posts to come - Paladin, Vargur, and a comparison of all four against each other.

On the topic of Golem torps, I agree splitting weapons is the way to go, as well as counting volleys to maximise DPS application (rather than concerning yourself with cost). Counting is a fairly small price to pay for the damage type selection you get. Counting to save isk though is a bit redundant for the return, not really worth it. When I fly a Golem I must admit though I don’t count, and my target painters are always against the smallest targets I am currently shooting at as you get a larger % increase in applied damage that way.

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To next target. Turn it off on last volley, paint new target. YOu will paint till the end of the cycle. I usually mix with weapons cycle. press F1. press tp to turn it off.

You turn it off to not burn a whole new cycle on a hit that will burn the structure unpainted.

Example from my tengu hml setup.

Gurista BC’s are 3 scourge fury volleys for my fit with implants. 3 cycles HML, 3 cycles paint. turn off both during that 3rd cycle. Last cycle runs out.

Cycle ends pick new target start up both weapons and paint 3 cycles on them.

If at say 70 km’s I am painting and firing the new target as I see the old target’s structures pop and ship kill.

This is how you get 4 dead BC’s on the opening room of worlds collide in 12 missile volleys. 3 cycles of paint and missiles only per Gurista BC on their side. Think its 4. If 5 or 6…its still 3 volleys per BC.

Since golem being looked at here…shooting torps at cruisers and frigs pointless anyway. In or out of bastion you will tank a few cruisers. You’d put torps in a BS and kill the dps that matters. Drone the small stuff.

Missile users need to think like gun users here. You do not waste your guns on small targets. Unless…you are a rail boat using MJD. Then yeah you blap that small crap. At 100 km’s where there is 0 traversal as they burn in straight lined.

ONce small crap gets under guns with enough tracking and web…even 425 II rails will hit an orbiting cruiser. It will hit like butt…but it will hit.

The question is why the hell would do that. Drone them…put the rails on a BS. Same for torps and cruise here.

Want high slots to kill everything as a missile chucking BS? That is what rapid heavies are for imo. On mission like a buffet of rat types I love Rapid heavy on a rattlesnake. Saves playing swap out games on the drones. Get really lazy its drop sentry for BS’ and rapid the small crap. Then rapid BS’s when that done.

That’s the problem. We are not talking about the same thing.
The new torpedo golem has nothing to do with hold tengu HAM. It has nothing to do with old BS fits, especially old cruise BS fits.

Any comparison to your old habits is void. With 4s delay per salvo, and the alpha per salvo being way above your HAM tengu, you need to degroup your launchers or you are wasting a lot of overkill damage. Your effective cycle for torps is 2s

It amazes me. Why are you talking about something you don’t understand ?

I strongly disagree. Pulse Lasers and Autocannons have usually around 4 sec RoF. With a half decent setup and skillset you can hit frigs down to 15km in approach with a one hit kill. Cruisers usually two hits. Way faster than even bothering sending out drones, except for the one straggler you want to let through.
Postioning → instakill frigs & cruisers until stage aggro and all spawns appear → kill BS, use drones for the one missed frig or just for max damage output.

This is exactly the issue with the torp Golem, the inability to do that.

What ?
Actually when the frigates orbit you and they are painted, you one shoot them - with 2-launchers groups. Below 16km you waste no shot, however you need an auto targeter since they pop so fast it’s “next target ; painter ; torpedo ; goto 0”.
The only issue is the cycles delay, and the cycle of the painter. So you want to have two painters, a group of torps on BS, another one on frigates and you alternate the painters because they pop pop pop.
Once all the small targets are done, you can switch to rage on the BS if there remain any.

In vargur it’s a bit different, you need to shoot frigs from afar as you can’t hit them close and your drones are kinda not as efficient. worst case you MJD.

Could a missile guidance computer with precision script (if that’s the name, I mean the mid slot module for smaller faster explosions) be a good alternative to a target painter?

You don’t have to fiddle with your target painter cycle time and the missile application apllies to every shot then!

I would think it gives a similar damage increase as a target painter against small fast targets, right?

nope.
a GC T2 is +16.5% speed and -16.5% sig so Ă—1.39 to application.
a faction TP is base +33%, Ă—1.5 from golem, Ă—1.25 from sig focusing skil => 61.87% = Ă—1.6187
basically it means +16% damage over a GC. And that’s if you don’t have eg a MGE nor a rigor, otherwise the gain in application from GC is reduced by stacking

indeed. That’s why I wrote that a MGE can be better than a BCS. I personally consider a rigor+hydraulicbaythruster + MGE is a good choice then. But STILL with two faction painters.
But yes maybe in some cases the MGC can be better than the painter.

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