Mass cloaky camper

(Caitlynn Askyra) #61

Opportunity cost is just a trash argument, that’s all.

(Caitlynn Askyra) #62

How about you stop with the strawman arguments. Stop using the word victim as a way to discredit every single point I make. If you had a decent counter argument you wouldn’t have to use these low tactics to try and validate your argument.

(Lena Crews) #63

What are you talking about? Is this intentional misrepresentation of what I said or are you not able to comprehend the words I typed?

I said: “I’m not sure the opportunity cost argument works perfectly here in the way you’re using it.”

You said: “Opportunity cost is always a thing. Always.”

I said “Of course it is. But as the part you cut out of your quote said… I think the opportunity cost when someone has 25 accounts isn’t what they could do with that account… it’s the time (and isk) earned from their primary isk earning activities.”

I didn’t say opportunity cost didn’t exist. I said you were applying the concept wrong. You’re viewing opportunity cost as a character specific thing. It’s PLAYER specific. If a player is only able to simultaneously play 3 accounts actively, AFK activities on other accounts only have an opportunity cost if there is a mutually exclusive OTHER AFK activity that the account could be doing.

(Teckos Pech) #64

So, mining your own minerals is free in your view.

Nice job making yourself look really foolish.

(Teckos Pech) #65

The problem is not me misunderstanding, it is you not grasping the concept of opportunity cost and that it is always present when you have a choice between mutually exclusive options.

This is not at all correct. If I, the player, decide to park an alt in a system and cloaky camp, then I, the player, decide to log him off and log in another character that is a decision between mutually exclusive options so it entails opportunity cost to me, the player. If I choose to cloaky camp 24/7 (less DT) then I, the player, incur an opportunity cost…of not being able to log in my other alts on that account and use them for making ISK or whatever. If I choose differntly there is still an opportunity cost. Trying to argue about player vs. pilot is a distraction based on your misunderstanding.

The point is there is a cost to cloaky camping, if it is only opportunity cost.

Edit: Even if I do not have other alts on that account, I, the player, also incur an opportunity cost in using that player to cloaky camp, in that I could use him for other ISK making/resource gathering activities. The reason that I, the player, incur this cost, is that that character cannot be in two places in the game at the same time. So which ever choice I, the player, make, the opportunity cost is the second best forgone option.

(Caitlynn Askyra) #66

You’re talking about things that no player involved in the situation cares about, nobody in the game is thinking about opportunity cost.

(Teckos Pech) #67

Really? Gee, all those posts where people about how mining your own minerals are not free were not there? Okay.

But, despite your efforts to display your stunning ignorance and deliberate obtuseness, opportunity cost is still a think and AFK cloaking is no more without costs, than mining your own minerals are “free”.

(Lena Crews) #68

You’re ignoring capacity. I’m not sure what you’re real world background is… it feels like you have some economic theory without actually having to apply it in real scenarios.

A player in eve has a certain capacity for playing the game. A certain amount of time and limit to how many interfaces he can actively manage at one time. Once that capacity is filled… it’s filled. He can buy more accounts but he can’t actively play the characters on those accounts without stopping another one… because he’s at capacity. So there’s no opportunity cost to use those accounts in a manner that takes 0 capacity to play the game… unless the alternative also takes 0 capacity.

It would be like claiming that the opportunity cost of lending someone a million dollars at 5% interest has an opportunity cost of not using that money to day-trade… when you have no actual time to engage in day-trading because you work another job when the markets are open. In that case the opportunity cost of your other job is the loss of day-trade income. The opportunity cost of the loan would be whatever the highest value option is for your million dollars that doesn’t use your time (capacity).

The only way your view works is if a player could have others play his alts and wasn’t constrained by capacity. But that is not allowed.

(Kaleesh) #69

I see there is a lot of guys who just try to talk about something what is not part of my initial post and they do not stop with arguing for their points, please guys stop that!

(Lena Crews) #70

Opportunity cost is relevant to your original post about mass afk-camping.

Teckos believes that the player with 25 accounts camping a region is incurring a cost. Because of that he makes the argument that screwing with your operations costs that guy income he could instead be making with those accounts… he’s not getting that impact on you for nothing. Since he’s forgoing other income, he’s justified in getting some impact out of it.

(at least that’s how I understand his point)

My belief is that since the player of those accounts has certainly met his capacity for active play with less than 25 accounts, the only thing you can use as an opportunity cost for the AFK camping accounts would be other things that require 0 capacity from the player… other things that could be accomplished with as little active input as logging in and hitting the cloak button. Anything he might do with that account that requires some capacity would require him to give up the use of capacity elsewhere, so cannot be an opportunity cost for someone who’s at full capacity utilization for their time and attention in game.

that would indicate it actually is nearly “free” to interfere with others operations through the method you describe.

(yellow parasol) #71

there are no strawman arguments from my side.

fact is, that as long as people don’t find out if the afk cloaker actually has a fleet waiting, people are scared of the idea of a threat. it could as well just be an extortionist banking on the fact that people believe he’s an actual threat. that’s not strawman, it’s logic. :slight_smile:

it’s your mindset, that convinces you that the afk cloaker definitely has a fleet waiting, that turns you into victims. there’s no strawman here either. people are scared of the idea of a threat. :slight_smile:

the base of your whole argumentation is an unconfirmed threat, and as you don’t dare undocking bait to find out if he indeed is an actual threat, you simply have no ground to speak on. that’s why i, rightfully so, claim that you have the mindset of a victim. :slight_smile:

This whole conversation is a waste of time, because your “reasoning” builds on feelings and fear. you not being able to comprehend the logic behind my words, doesn’t change that i am correct! it’s like every afk cloaking thread ever, a waste of time, because your mindset demands that the world changes, so you can farm in perfect safety. :slight_smile:

it was, by all means, very helpful for confirming what’s going on and how equal all those, who share this mindset, actually are. i’ll opt out now, because you are incapable of understanding actual logic and the necessity for a rational base. your emotional one doesn’t cut it for any arguments whatsoever. so, instead i will now let you waste your time arguing back and forth with others. :slight_smile:

have a nice day, and thank you for the insights. :slight_smile:

(Caitlynn Askyra) #72

What a load of rubbish, people don’t afk cloak on their mains.

(Caitlynn Askyra) #73

No it doesn’t, it builds on being realistic. You are being purposefully ignorant to further your argument.

(Wolfe Loderun) #74

OP gets trolled into posting by player exploiting the game, which CCP endorses. OP then gets trolled into being defensive in forums. OP - You gotta understand that the people that love this game and exploit it think very different from normal people, gamers, civilians, etc. They don’t adhere to everyday rules, morals, and ethics and this sandbox let’s them embrace that. If you think there are game-breaking mechanics you should take it up quietly with CCP, because any notion of changing the coveted sandbox will bring empyrean wrath down on you from every direction.

I say take a deep breath, grab some exotic dancers and Quafe (unless you’re a god loving Amarrian slaver), and embrace the openness of the game you must also love. o7

(William Ormono) #75

What a thread!

It sounds like CCP is working to address cloaky camping with the Observatory Arrays they will be releasing in the future. So there should be a light at the end of the tunnel.

Convincing CCP that one player cloaky camping with 25 subbed accounts is a bad thing will be no small task. Money talks.

I also think implementing controls where a player can do something with 1 account, but not with ‘x’ number of accounts could be difficult to implement. There is an accepted history of multi-boxing in this game that kind of sets a president against that.

(Teckos Pech) #76

There is nothing about capacity in opportunity cost. You are simply making up nonsense at this point.

Irrelevant nonsense. Opportunity cost is present for each an every choice a player makes. This attempt to inject capacity is just pure unadulterated nonsense. Even if I have 2 hours, to play the game and in the first hour select A over B and C, and B is the next best choice, the opportunity cost in that hour is B. In the second hour if I pick between B and C, then C is the opportunity cost. The fact that I can do B later does not negate B as the opportunity cost in the first hour because I could have chosen it and did not.

No, this is just simply incorrect. First off you should not include irrelevant alternatives. That is quite clear from what I wrote. Your ascribing the first sentence to me is simply nonsense as there is nothing I have written otherwise.

Second, the choices you have laid out are again incorrect, I can:

  1. Day trade, or
  2. Work (and presumably earn an income) and lend the $1 million at 5%.

If I opt for working, the the opportunity cost is the day trading option.

(Wolfe Loderun) #77

Teckos is right here. I sense a business, economist, or project management background. It would be best not to argue this point with him.

(Teckos Pech) #78

Yes, this is exactly my point. That those alts could be used from something else entails a cost and therefore it is not “free” or without costs as is often claimed by the anti-cloaking side.

You are forgetting that people can and do multi-box. So it is possible that his options are use 10 for invention, 6 for PI and the rest for running anomalies (or ganking freighters, or something else that has not been mentioned yet)…or use them all for camping. Given that he has choices, there is opportunity costs.

(Teckos Pech) #79

Hopefully, and hopefully a nice light that allows for better game play and more content for all of us, those doing PvE and those of us who hunt them.

(Teckos Pech) #80

Does not matter if they use their mains or alts. Either way there is opportunity cost.