[MERC] Who Dares Wins

I can think of a con.

These guys’ Diplomat talked me out of a relatively straightforward “Clear the Customs Offices out of my system” contract in favor of moving into their space and paying a 5% tribute of ore mined and then one of their own participated in a multi-billion isk gank as I was moving in the station service modules and the fuel.

I told exactly one person my plans and my rough timeline.

That Diplomat.

My own corp members didn’t know.

Hell, my GF didn’t even know and she doesn’t even play the game.

I suppose since they “got paid” there is an element of “professional” there, but not honor.

Thaddeus reached out to me in-game, very upset about this post and rightfully so.

I did not make it clear in my post that my issue is with the Diplomat, not the organization as a whole. Partly that’s because I wasn’t aware of the degree to which the Diplomat exceeded his negotiating authority and failed to communicate the details of the conversation we had and the promises he made.

I can’t speak to whether there was malice or just staggering incompetence on the part of that player but either way, Thaddeus’ offer of replacing HALF of my immediate losses was rejected.

First of all, my losses were not all there. I lost a day sorting out what was lost and what needed replacing and then restaging it to the forward base.

During Thaddeus’ conversation with me he more than once clearly indicated that his idea of solving this might just be wiping my tiny little corp out (something I can’t do a thing about - we’re not a militant corp and we’re very small).

His anger was that the “Who Dares Wins.” alliance being called out for misbehavior and to the degree that it wasn’t the entire alliance that misbehaved, he is correct that my post was inappropriate.

There was nothing of negotiating anything in that conversation, though.

Yes. He apologized for the attack. He did it with a lot of self-justification, but he did it.

He pressed me hard for an immediate decision about whether I was staying or leaving, which I couldn’t give him. I told him I needed to take some time to decide what I was going to do, that I didn’t have the resources to take the structure down and relocate it because frankly I’m broke after the debacle that more than doubled the cost of fitting and fueling the structure initially.

He gave me one day to make up my mind.

That’s not a negotiation. That’s a notification.

Frankly, it’ll take me longer than that to do the cost benefit analysis of staying versus leaving with the restrictions Thaddeus added to my freedom to operation in nearby space.

Additionally, since it was the Diplomat’s idea for me to come here in the first place, it never occurred to me that I’d be facing a need to vacate within a week of bringing the structure online. It was not part of even my worst contingency planning.

I’m not prepared to make a snap decision and I’m not prepared to immediately vacate the system, other than by abandoning it altogether and losing my entire investment. At a minimum, if I decide to leave, it will take me a month to do so gracefully, likely two.

But I have a day to make up my mind.

Use care when dealing with any “fuzzy” negotiations in game (anything not in an in-game contract). There are varying levels of competence, honor, and communication skills to be dealt with and it’s very easy for the guy with the guns to say “Our version of this is the only truth that matters.”

Thaddeus, thank you for reaching out. If you find it necessary to wipe my corp’s assets out, you’ll do so and I’ll report it here and elsewhere.

If I decide I can still do what I intended to do - put a market in an underserved part of the universe - put in manufacturing and research and invention and refining services open to anyone who needs them - I’ll do my best to keep the structure in place.

If I decide I can’t, I’ll do my best to move it, but on my own timeline.

The errors here (assuming it wasn’t outright malice) were entirely that of the alliance Diplomat.

That’s not the fault of the membership of that alliance and for painting them all with the same brush, I apologize.

Yup. An hour later every ship I have is gone. There were four or five ships waiting for me as I left the system. My Blockade Runner lasted a few jumps but was taken out as well.

They were careful this time not to use their own members so as to have deniability, but I have no doubt that this is payback for a brutally honest, negative review.

I have a purpose in the game now. I’ll be sure to share this story far and wide.

A major mercenary alliance Diplomat makes a deal they don’t want to honor and responds to criticism of that by attacking the little corporation they talked into moving into their space to begin with.

You can bet that’s gonna get some traction.

Nice job. Splended scam. I am in awe. Truly. To think I could have just done what I wanted in the first place and paid to have you clear out the Customs Offices in the system I was happily ensconced in originally. I hope you guys had fun. I know I will.

Rather than tear it down and have it destroyed in transit, I simply ceded it to Bravo-Two-Zero. They weren’t going to allow me to keep it anyway. This was just simpler. Time to shake the dust off my feet and move on.

You’ve been warned. Be careful with this alliance.

We regret you feel your experience has been negative. As we made clear to you when trying to clear up the initial incident, customer service is very important to us - for clarity please see the record here: https://pastebin.com/ddpwuy6c

Furthermore, as you have not mentioned it in your post - no money between us has ever exchanged hands.

Finally, we are very careful to keep client details secret even from associates. As you can see from the killmail, no SAS appear on this - you were also warned many times that lowsec would not be safe. https://zkillboard.com/kill/78900413/

Unfortunately in this business communication is key - and despite our best efforts to inform you of the details something has fallen through the gaps. The continued insinuation that you were misled we take very seriously - thus why we have put all of the information out in a public forum, worts and all, so our future clients can have both sides of the story.

Unfortunately, like in the real world, you cannot please every customer.


The Who Dares Wins. [-SAS-] Team.

Your attempt to “clear up the situation” was at the point of a gun.

“Agree with us or we’ll just wipe you out.”

Be very, very careful dealing with these . . . I’ll be polite and use the term they used when they delivered their one-day-to-make-a-decision-about-the-altered-terms talk and say “gentlemen” here.

When you have the guns, you get to say what the truth is. I stand by that.

It is undeniable that one of you alliance members attacked one of my ships after I’d agreed to a tribute agreement.

It is likely that the information came from the only person I told of my plans, your Diplomat.

Within an hour of being given my ultimatum and reporting the exchange of words where you delivered it here literally every resource of mine or my corporation’s within reach of you was wiped out, most of it as soon as I left the system on the way back. One ship got two or three jumps away before it was taken out.

Yes, you were clever enough to have friends not in your alliance handle that last bit.

I was NOT told that the danger in low sec would come from the very Alliance I was to pay tribute to.

I was NOT told that you have a policy against POS in “your” systems.

Your “diplomat” was informed clearly of my intentions and made a deal you repudiated.

Your excuse that “He exceeded his negotiating authority” isn’t anything other than CYA or a lie.

You gave him that authority. You need to respect it or FULLY compensate any customers who made decision and/or had losses based on his failure to stay within your policies and/or communicate his agreements with you.

No money changed hands because my original request was to have you folks remove Customs Offices in the system I was originally in. I was perfectly willing to pay the 6 billion-ish isk he was asking for that to be done, but YOUR DIPLOMAT TALKED ME OUT OF THAT in favor of a 5% ore-tribute agreement which I accepted.

I hadn’t done any mining yet, so there was no tribute to give.

But the agreement was there.

Again, he ASKED me to move into your space. We specifically discussed my setting up that structure. We even went over a few systems where it might be placed and he was notified when I gave him my final selection. At no point did I hear from him, EVER, that you had an alliance policy against such things.

I still think that this was some sort of elaborate “Screw over the new guy” scam - whether for money (there was several billion in loot picked up not to mention the Azbel I simply turned over to Bravo-Two-Zero because there was just no way you guys were ever going to let me get that thing out of there) or simply for keks.

Either way, you can play the “We didn’t really do it” lie or you can fess up to the monumentally brilliant scam that this was and own it.

Your potential customers need to know to protect themselves.

If they can, and do, likely things will work out.

If not, if they’re a smaller corp with little in the way of martial resources . . . well, all I can say is “Be careful.”

As to a few specific points:

“Lowsec would not be safe” - I understand lowsec is dangerous and I took precautions. I scouted the routes out ahead of time. I was in and out of that system and along that route more than a dozen times in three days moving elements around to make setting up that station possible. I moved with a lead and trailing frigate to scout for oddities along the way.

It wasn’t until the fuel and service module shipment was inbound, the one I tried to get in-system protection for a small vulnerability window, that anyone was there and they were there in groups.

Smaller ships I sent ahead didn’t get hit.

There were no other ships along the route (no “why is this frigate here” mystery ships - that’s why I HAD smaller ships running ahead of me).

They were cloaked or out of range and waiting for me.

They couldn’t possibly have done that if your diplomat hadn’t told someone I was coming.

“You cannot please every customer” is a sad, inadequate phrase for betraying one and taking virtually everything he had simply because you could.

Your “apology” was little more than a bully with a gun telling me to behave myself. When I didn’t, I was taken out.

Cry coincidence all you want. Qui bono is still the most accurate way to find the guilty party. You wanted me out of there. I’m out. You wanted a decision quickly, a decision I told you I wasn’t ready to make quickly, made. You got one and used that deadline against me.

You can spin this all you like, but it comes down to your Diplomat talked me into doing something I had no thought to do otherwise, something that specifically violated your Alliance policies (which I had no way of knowing) and then sold or gave that information to friends to use to go after me. Then you and he hid behind “stuff happens in low sec” as an excuse.

I’m not buying it. I doubt anyone with half a brain will.

Well I already bought the popcorn and now I want the juice.

Come on chaps. Where’s my juice.

Juice would be given, but we are on contract atm. Juice will be handed out after.

G-d help your customer.

Accepting new contracts as a couple have ceased. Get with me in game! : D

A truly excellent bunch of space friends. Not that they’re space friends. I suppose we’re rent-a-space-friends now.

Love their vibe. Love their juice.

Thanks! We try! ^.^

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