Mindstorm Experience Packs

EVE Information Portal Announcements
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My argument, in fact, was that this new thing is not doing that. The frigates are not different than the starter packs that have been sold for years—they are not, in fact, a ‘new thing’—yet I don’t see you decrying those. Nor are the effectively any different than the free frigates you get for 5 minutes of risk-free gameplay. It almost takes more time to buy the Mindstorm pack, and it definitely offers more risk. The issue of ‘what door does this open toward’ is one that’s been open for a long, long time.

The best indicator of what they might do going forward is what they’ve already done for larger ships. Namely, the only medium-sized hulls even touched on: barges. And what they’ve done is to set up a way to buy PLEX along with the temporary skill pack. Which means that going forward, they’re likely to… sell PLEX. Shocking, I know.

They’ve been doing that since Incarna, really. EVE’s kept alive by the expectations of grudge-matches among the players, more than anything CCP does.

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BTW, @CCP_Dopamine @CCP_Convict @CCP_Aurora, another question that’s kinda sorta about the Mindstorm packs… way back when, we got promised that the ‘new’ launcher news blurbs would never have more than 1 ad in them at a time.

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Even if we go ahead and say the ad carousel isn’t one of the news blurbs, That’s still 2: The Mindstorm packs (thus the presence in this thread) and the St. Patrick’s Day Recycled SKINs. Adding the ‘World News’ channel to the rotation would help you guys keep that promise, you know. :stuck_out_tongue:

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I don’t mind Expert systems at all, but selling ships(AND fit for it) is a new level of greed - this is disgusting and might kill EVE for good.

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Whoopsie doodle unsubbed again.

Silly CCP

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At this point I don’t believe any veteran players are into trying out mining barges because of how nerfed mining is now, this has got to be geared toward newer players but even so I think newer players will walk once they realize how nerfed mining as an activity is, the 50 plex they will burn thru in no time at all and then their mining only brings pathetic profits.

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Nothing could be worse than Captains Quarters, they said

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My question would be that if these packs are important to the npe, then why aren’t they just included in the npe like the ships necessary to complete the tutorials are. Why do they cost real money?

Veterans know what happens to people who shortcut the skill system and buy shiny toys early in their careers with PLEX. The marketing hype says buy to ‘take eve by storm’. It promotes the grandiose attitude that gets new players killed.

New players think they want these things and that they were made for them. Really, though, making them pay to be a more pricey loss mail is no favor. I don’t get the impression that losing ships you pay real cash for will improve retention rates overall.

New player onboarding should be free, and preferably included as part of the guided tutorial.

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Simples - time to win Eve…

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lot of salt in here lmao.

the expert systems isnt (necessarily) for us older players in the game who already have the skills for these although is an option for new toons but thats what skill injectors are for. its simply for those who simply dont mind spending a few bucks to fly a ship while they train into it.

even for new toons honestly, being able to instantly fly the ship as you train it up into whatever ship it may be for might just what some people may want to do if they find it worth doing for whatever reason.

its just another way to “shorten the time” between using and flying the ship except its behind a pay feature. personally i dont mind the idea of it, but im not going to use it because i dont mind the wait. if you dont like it then just ignore it. its just another monetary option to put money in CCP’s wallets to run and improve the game.

i dont even know why im replying in this thread, i already know you all dislike any new feature involving money that CCP does although i dont i mind reading salt or just negative criticism

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It’s a bad design with good intentions.

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this crap needs to get banned from mmos!

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Microtransactions and Player Perceptions
There are a ton of games out there that have implemented anti-consumer microtransactions into their games over the years, which has given many players many opportunities to develop strong negative opinions on the matter. In fact, they are not only regarded by the PC gaming community as being anti-consumer in and of themselves, but also as hallmarks of terrible games. Yes, otherwise great games can sometimes be saddled with terrible monetization methods. But all too often, they have been paired with crappy games, with some devs even going so far as to compromise on their gaming experiences in order to incentivize more microtransaction purchases.

So, it kind of doesn’t matter what your intent behind Expert Systems is; it’s still going to turn off many players as soon as they see it. And they’re not going to go looking for dev blogs or white knights to justify why they’re being sold. They’re just going to assume that it’s microtransaction garbage, and that there’s a pretty good chance that the game is bad as well.

Player Retention and Competing Interests
Well, you guys are in the best position to determine their effect on player retention, but I’m not so certain that expert systems is the solution. Don’t get me wrong, I know there are a lot of players that are impatient to fly more skill intensive ships, but there is a problem of competing interests. If you only offer expert systems for things like T1 exploration frigates and mining barges, they don’t help newbros get into ships all that much faster than they already could with a subscription (which is a better value). And if you offer expert systems for more skill intensive and powerful ships, it’s going to piss off every one who’s against P2W. Speaking of which…

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P2W
Expert systems allows people to buy an advantage. That advantage is currently so small that I’m not freaking out about it, but that doesn’t mean that this can’t become a problem if you push it too far. We already have things like Bunny Lu buying an alliance, and someone buying a capital fleet for organization (I can’t remember who it was, I heard on TiS a while back). So, I don’t consider it unreasonable to be concerned that this might be one day be used by whales to buy skills for fleets and organizations.

Player Progression
Once again, I know new players are frequently chomping at the bit to get into bigger and badder ships, but there are advantages to a slow progression system in a game with a full loot death mechanic. For example, I’ve argued many times on the forums that exposing new players to PvP early is a good thing, because it helps them to learn valuable lessons in cheap ships, rather than expensive ones. Now, expert systems hasn’t gotten too crazy with what it’s offered so far (with the mining barge being the most expensive ship), but I still foresee this leading to a lot of expert systems purchasers being upset over their lost Retrievers.

Closing thoughts
I don’t like a lot of recent monetization methods (i.e. selling SP directly to players, selling skill books, renting SP), but what really has me concerned is that this is starting to look like a trend. I’m starting to become extremely concerned that this kind of stuff will continue, and it’s undermining my confidence in the direction of the game.

And by the way, it’s not just bitter vets who are complaining about this. In fact, I white knight so much, I’ve actually been accused of being a dev alt.

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I agree with you, I believe that as well intended as these microtransactions may be, they will ultimately turn new players away and have the exact opposite effect they are looking for.

As I have stated before in another post about the recent microtransactions, I reached a point where I saw a weeks long skill que between me and my progress and the only way out had a big ISK or moderate RL price tag attached…I felt that this was such a stupid mechanic, because I just came from Albion online where I was able to grind away at my skills that are constantly developing as I use them, rather than just with a timer. However, speaking to veterans, one in particular, they allowed me to gain some perspective on the game and understand the value of such a slower system. I had it in mind that perhaps it is pay to win, but the reality is that experience and knowledge are key, not just in-game skills. I have that long forgotten vet from last year to thank, for why I am still here.

New players won’t hit this obstacle after playing for a few days to a week, they will hit it day one with these Expert Systems advertising just how long their progress will be halted unless a few is paid, giving a very bad presentation much too early whilst also coming across like a scam developed for money grabbing. I do not believe that is then intention behind the design, but I do believe this will be the effect.

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I understand that every business needs to make money. Employees and bandwidth aren’t free. ‘Mindstorm Experience Packs’, though fall into territory where I can call them questionable for the game’s long term health.

The skills a player really needs to succeed in a task or ambition in Eve are generally not going to be on their character sheet. Your character sheet does matter, and lacking a skill can prohibit you from flying a specific ship, but we live in a universe where people in frigates can make a living destroying battleships as their day job if they want to. Punching well above your weight is something you can achieve consistently.

What kinds of player do you suppose punch above their weight? My guess would be the veteran population, and I would go on to suppose they do this because they have skills that are not on their character sheet.

To take the exploration packs as an example, your skills make it easier to track down a particular signature, sure, but it was not uncommon for me, in a basic ship with a basic probe launcher and mediocre skills to scan down signatures that other people in purpose built ships and better skills could not. The only difference in my favor being a more in depth familiarity with an obtuse interface.

Mindstorm packs perpetuate, through official Eve branded channels operated by CCP, that skills on your character sheet can make you competitive or give you some decisive advantage over others, or that a more expensive ship can do the same. The marketing hype necessary to sell these items feeds into player expectations and sets them up to think that there is something wrong with the game when they lose, and they will lose if an experienced player chooses to engage. The experience will be disorienting, frustrating, and discouraging when they know little to nothing about how their ships operate or interact with other player ships. A problem Mindstorm Packs only serve exacerbate.

This isn’t a theme park MMO where you need higher skills to dish out higher damage to NPCs with higher HP according to a level progression. People don’t completely abandon an area of space because they’re over-leveled for it. You can participate in current content even with smaller ships that can be trained into quickly. There is not as much need to skip past the early player development phase as there is in other MMOs where starter areas become ghost towns because there’s no reason to go back to them.

If a new player wants to inject some skills that will really help them out, my suggestion would be to listen to the advice offered by people who’ve been playing the game for a while. Never take anything for face value. Always question, test, and verify independently and with other sources where you can before relying on a piece of information overmuch. Veterans generally offer good advice, though, and will teach you the ins and outs they know if you listen. Most of them want Eve to succeed and recognize that new players are their lifeline into the far future. The reality is, though, that there is no easy way (at least not today) to ‘take eve by storm’. You will have to inject into your own brain if you want to be a badass pirate/wealthy tycoon or what-have-you. Fortunately people come with two wireless ports on either side of their head for this purpose if they’d only close the port in the middle long enough to receive the transmission and it doesn’t cost anything to use them that way.

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*knockknock anybody home ?

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Yep, they are making mmorpg fps, its up on their career website.

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Not the same devs.

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maybe they should develop a triglavian farm simulator.

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People are so illogical…

Here’s two scenarios, which if those two is factually worse from a P2W perspective while also having a much larger and lasting impact:

  • newbie want to try “cool stuff”, finds something that costs peanuts that grants temporary options. The cost is super low, the effects aren’t lasting and said newbie enjoys the cool stuff and as the gains are there for a week might be enticed to play that whole week.

  • newbie wants to try “cool stuff”, buys 1100 Plex for quite a bit of money, sells it all and buys 2 injectors giving him FAR more sp than the above option and with the remaining isk buys 30 fitted Herons. He STILL has a ton of isk left meaning that any newbie milestone, making your first 1/10 mil isk or perhaps saving for his first cruiser, is now completely and utterly meaningless.

Anyone whining about this while being fine with the concept of Plex and skill injectors (making use of them means you’re fine with it) is either just raging because he wants to, a hypocrite or just not very smart.

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Not necessarily. There are a lot of mechanics that the null blocs think are completely horrible and bad for the game, but because of the competitive nature of null politics, they basically have to use them. None of the null blocs can afford to be the one group that doesn’t, because they’d be at a debilitating disadvantage. HACs, for example—we’re all pretty sick of them. Even with the minor nerf, the ADC is still too powerful on fast ships with high alpha-strike volley capability. And yes, I mean Muninns. Muninns still have absolutely no drawbacks balancing them out. Eagles are slow. Vagabonds are way too fragile for fleet engagements. Cerbs are missile boats and kinda fragile. Zealots eat up all their cap, and are too slow for their own good. Sacs are slow missile boats. Ishtars have been nerfed over and over and over and could still be used very effectively if all of null wasn’t waiting for Asher to use them again. Deimos… lolblasterboats.

The Muninn, though… no downsides. Everything in balance, and carrying the most effective large-scale weapons platform in EVE: artillery. Just about all of us hate it. But we all use it.

And that’s just one example. Injectors can definitely be another. ‘I need this alt skilled up so I can run cynos for the alliance’ or ‘so I can use a JF’ or a bunch of other things. You don’t have to approve of something to bow to necessity.