Mindstorm Experience Packs

[Arrendis]

@Dan_4-2-01

so it isnt pay to win if i use 20-50 bot accounts

No, it’s a massive EULA violation and a bannable offense. But hey, good job conflating two completely different things.

Also, if you think 20-50 accounts is gonna give you an endless supply of ships, I want some of what you’re smoking. I’ve watched a thousand ships burn in a single engagement. We’ve probably seen over a hundred thousand destroyed in the current war.

Some day, you’ll realize the scale EVE gets played on, and how little it matters what one idiot wastes his money on.

@Dan_4-2-01

yea go back to ur muds i bet u guys had that stuff in there in the 80s… no you did not lol

Frankly, we totally had the ability to multibox on MUDs. You set up multiple clients—either actual mudclients once dedicated clients were available, or multiple shell iterations running telnet.exe, or, if you were on campus, half a dozen different shell logins on adjacent machines in the lab. Mind you, everything was done via keyboard commands (no GUI), so it was kind of time-consuming, but there were commands like ‘follow’ that you could use to slave one login to another and just wander around with a bunch of different characters to whomp on monsters.

Of course, those games usually reset every 3-6 hours (in some cases, as often as every 90 minutes) and most of the gear wasn’t persistent, so any gains would have been of limited benefit. The only thing you kept was your levels.

But, you know, you keep on with your assumptions there, Binky.

[Dan_4-2-01 (Dan 4-2-0)]

i dont say that everything you say is wrong! sure u are right that u cant win every fight with RL money and that the fights in eve are more about knowledge of the game and the huge organisations of players and community gameplay (one of the reasons why i love eve) and sure its also somehow awesome to destroy peoples money i think most of us agree on this topic

BUT

u cant denie the fact that with plex u can manipulate the gameplay by using RL money and this is a big NONO in games! maybe for some people this is normal but not for me and it should never be!

we are not talking about power or anything, we are not talkin about who is the best in the game,

we are talking about that players can use their RL money to do buy anything in the game! this is wrong! (MY OPINION)

@Arrendis

Also, if you think 20-50 accounts is gonna give you an endless supply of ships, I want some of what you’re smoking. I’ve watched a thousand ships burn in a single engagement. We’ve probably seen over a hundred thousand destroyed in the current war.

i never said that accounts give u a endless supply!

BUT RL MONEY DOES!

and with the combination of massive multilog and botting u will just get one thing: people quit!

[Arrendis]

@Dan_4-2-01

u cant denie the fact that with plex u can manipulate the gameplay by using RL money

No, you really can’t. All you can do is drain your own wallet. The game will not care, in the long run. The things you spend the money on get blown up, and they’re gone. And they had to come from someone playing the game—all the bling, all the ships (except for a handful of frigates that won’t unbalance anything), all of it had to come from playing the game. All you can do by buying PLEX to get ISK, and then spending ISK to get those items, is a)move ISK around, and b)pay for someone else’s subscription/ship SKINs/cosmetics/Skill Extractors/etc.

You can’t create a damned thing. There are no ‘premium ships’, there is no ‘gold ammo’. Nothing gets created by spending $$. It gets created by someone going out and playing the game. From modules to ships to ammo to structures, it all has to be made, or farmed by actually playing the game.

Or, if we’re talking SP, that had to come out of the heads of alts via those Skill Extractors. Extractors that eat up PLEX (and so, consume RL money just to get SP out of someone’s head).

I’ve seen the people who manipulate the game. I’ve known the guys who make the markets move, who change the meta, and who completely shake up what’s happening.

NONE of them have needed to use RL money to do it. Not one. They use the power of social interactions. Aryth starts making moves on the market, tells people what he’s gonna do, so they do the same thing and magnify the impact until it’s self-sustaining. Asher goes and works up a way to use a hull that makes people angry because they can’t beat him, suddenly everyone’s trying to do what he did. Warr Akini decides ‘hey, let’s have a party in Jita to celebrate Mittens’ return!’ and it kicks off a cascade of effects still being felt in game mechanics changes made years later.

Manipulating EVE is never about PLEX. It’s about people.

@Dan_4-2-01

with the combination of massive multilog and botting u will just get one thing: people quit!

Awesome, then go find bots and report them. Bots are already a EULA violation. ‘People will quit if there’s X + Cheating!’… well, great, we already knew cheating was against the rules, that’s why it’s cheating.

[Xanthellus]

@Arrendis

This is different from (to use your example) WoW, because in WoW, losing a fight means nothing. Oh no, he lost. He’s still got his shiny legendary. He’s still using it. In EVE, he’s not.

When you die in EVE you still have the skills you injected.

@Arrendis

If two equivalent players in knowledge and experience, in the same ship with the same fit fight each other, no, it’s not a simple ‘whoever had the better skills trained wins’ equation. Do the skills influence things? Yep. But they don’t decide the matter. Having the same knowledge and experience doesn’t make you as good. Experience is great, but not everyone gets the same benefit from a certain degree of experience.

You’re again avoiding the point. All this fallacy is is “well if he just meets the perfect storm then he loses, so it’s not P2W”. If it’s equal the the one with the most applicable SP will win. If you do 15% more damage, 10% more rof, have 15% more tank, 10% more speed, 20% more cap. in an EVEN fight with equally skilled players, you will win. The fact that very often a fight is uneven doesn’t change that.

@Arrendis

Power comes from numbers.

Wrong. Power comes from organisation. Numbers in and of itself mean nothing if there’s no organisation, no planning, no preparation, no logistics, no knowledge, no common goal.

[Arrendis]

@Xanthellus

When you die in EVE you still have the skills you injected.

Hop in a Tengu and let’s test that.

Besides, you didn’t pay RL money for that skill injector. You paid ISK. RL money might have supplied the PLEX, but you didn’t need the PLEX to get the injector. You could’ve worked in-game for that money and then injected.

@Xanthellus

You’re again avoiding the point.

No, I’m not. ‘P2W’ is really ‘pay RL money for a competitive advantage’, and in EVE, that’s really just not the case. The competition in EVE isn’t a single fight. Ever. It’s long-term, and over the long-term, your cash purchases just won’t make a damned bit of difference. Let’s say you sold PLEX to get the ISK for an injector. By selling the PLEX, you’re giving someone else game time… and that game time might kill you. It might, in fact, cost you far more in the long run than your tiny little 500k SP gave you. In the end, it’s all a wash… at best.

@Xanthellus

Wrong. Power comes from organisation. Numbers in and of itself mean nothing if there’s no organisation, no planning, no preparation, no logistics, no knowledge, no common goal.

I can have all the organization in the world, but without butts in seats to do the work, it means nothing, too.

More, organizational skills are best acquired by putting enough people onto the task of figuring out how to organize. A super-efficient TO&E on a piece of paper won’t get you people. The first step is people. Organization is, itself, a power derived from having people.

[Inxentas_Ultramar]

That’s it.

I quit.

Forever this time.

[Mu_ad_Diib]

Don’t quit. The game needs all kinds of pilots to survive and you’re just as important as the next guy.

If this falls on deaf ears however and you are determined to quit, give your stuff to @Mike_Azariah so he can give it to newbies.

[Othello_Warspite]

@Mu_ad_Diib

Don’t quit. The game needs all kinds of pilots to survive and you’re just as important as the next guy.

I don’t feel like CCP agrees these days. When I started? Yes. Today? No.