Mobile Observatories – Live on Singularity

[Litsea_Reticulata]

@Fyn_Schereau

Completely agree that cloaky camping needed to go but how about we get some tools to help the hunters out here.

I’ll drop my cloak if the t3 interdiction nullified cloaky t3 droppers do it first…

@ghost_whiper

take away nullification so bubblefuck the pocket and no more roaming nullified gangs.

Back to the days of 150 interceptor gangs that were unengagable? Entosis captors?

Please, its not like gangs can’t take the gate and shoot at those bubbles. At least these days you get kill mails for them.

@Lieberfussel

its not, cause you still can cloak but is something different to do it with 20 Accounts.

If one is the kind of person no run 20 AFK cloaky alts, its not to big a stretch that person run a macro to automate a counter.

@cursedlion

Once more CCP starts bowing down to the nullbear bot alliances. Last time you did that to fix things you needed black out.

The Nullbear bots made CCP do blackout? You mean all the PvP hunters whining about how PvE was too safe because of free intel of local?

@Sinzor_Aumer

So you’re destroying cloaky camping, but leave local-reporting bots as they are. Good stuff, ccp.

One is AFK, the other is not.

@Izraelis

I expect that the bots will have no problem cycling their cloaks every once in a while.

I’m looking at it on the test server now and it does seem to be underwhelming.

@Hug_Motsu

How “random” are these things?

Every 10 minutes, for an hour and a half.

@Eto_Tekai

This has been a real issue in the game, and I’m so glad to see a counter.

No, its about as threatening as throwing confetti into a fire pit.

@Dav_Varan

How long does the recent activation buff last.

15 minutes, on all cloaks.

@Brisc_Rubal

It will have some impact on campers who are paying attention - there will be things you need to do in order to stay safe and continue waiting - but it will have the greatest impact on people who aren’t there, and give the folks in the system the ability to finally do something about that pesky neut in local who won’t leave and you can’t find.

Its a 30 second wait and a button push. 30 seconds to scan someone down is what, 6 sweeps at max skills? Looks like scanning is broken on the test server anyway, so cannot really tell.

@Brisc_Rubal

Once this is up on SISI, I’d be interested in hearing feedback on how it works, if the timers make sense, the cost and anything else specific to this module that folks want CCP to work on.

The penalty is too short and too easily mitigated through cheating. Annoy them more with a 15 minute combat timer, set capacitor to 0 and stop them from recloaking for a decent amount of time, like minutes, not seconds. In a 60 AU system, its going to take at least 2 or 3 passes just to figure out the general area.

Its not like the camper doesn’t know this is possible, the damn module is a system wide warpable beacon.

@Oscar_Class

Thats all. you destroying every suprize factor againts these corps… Corrupt CCP…

What garbage, during blackout the blocks did really well because of the umbrella and everyone else got shafted. What should be focused on is the revelation how OP cyno fields were and how soon after blackout started that CCP nerfed those too.

@Renan_Ruivo

If i were a bot, i guess i would make a script to alert me (Sound, ping, whatever) whenever it detects that cloak went down.

Yes. Easy to code.

@Renan_Ruivo

Home the sweep cycle is completely random.

Looks to be every 10 minutes. With a 15 minute ‘immunity’ that means best case of only having to push a button 3 times an hour to defeat the module.

@Alexa_Gainsworth

Also, if someone gets decloaked, they appear on the probe scanner window with a warpin.

Right now on the test server they cannot be probed, but considering how limited the window is to scan down someone who is cheating with a macro, a warpable entry is a far more threatening consequence, especially in large (60AU) systems where probing is like doing 3 pointers while blindfolded and being beaten with sticks.

@Brisc_Rubal

“They will work by periodically pinging system wide, with a chance to decloak cloaked ships which may then be combat scanned and destroyed.”

Seems pretty reliable, haven’t checked if they stack yet, but if I put down 10 then it could be a decloak per minute.

@Brisc_Rubal

That goes way, way, way too far.

Brisc, scanning sucks. You already made us spend ISK on a single use structure. All they have to do is leave the system. I don’t even care if they come back right away, as long as I can keep making them move through. gate where they can be camped and killed.

@Brisc_Rubal

I do agree that the way ADMs work now is borked and needs to be addressed down the road, but doing a complete rework is just not something that would be well received if we asked for it - especially since we’re on something like the fourth sov system in EVE and none of them have really been that popular.

ADM’s are upside down. Military level should reduce the number of sites, not increase it. That will make people more more than DBS ever can.

@Mike_Azariah

Folks, a lot of your questions and concerns will be better answered AFTER they update Sisi so you can see for yourself, test it for yourself.

I have. There needs to be a cloaking fatigue, as the 15 minutes invulnerability is going to be gamed to the point that every AFK cloaked will just macro the module on and off every 10 minutes, since even 30 seconds isn’t enough time to reliable scan a small ship down.

@Zhalyd_Lyehin

Baiting them. If they fall for the bait, you got PVP and improved your DBS and you learned important information.

No, it won’t, they are AFK dummy.

@Arrendis

If you were a bot, you’re probably not at the keyboard in the first place.

Its cyclical, when CCP bans bots, users just make better bots, until CCP catches up. In this case, a keyboard macro is all it takes.

@Litvar

well… imagine that the ping knocking you out of cloak adds a 2-5 minute timer on your re-activation…

That would be a lot better than how things are now, even if it wasn’t a cooldown, a full blast of heat that does some module damage would be an improvement.

@Kenneth_Feld

Why don’t we wait to complain until after we tried it…I know - crazy talk

I did try it. CCP have work to do.

@Artanis_Talander

krabs won

You can re-cloak still, or you can leave somewhere else, your choice.

@Hug_Motsu

in reality, it’s a mobile deployable unit (with a limited ping range?)
and people will still have to waste time to scan down the entire system? over and over and over again x100 - trying to find a needle in a haystack of ships…
and then you had to be lucky enough to scan a ship down. when its pilot has mismatch the eggtimer vs the mobile ping …

It is system wide, and scanning is broken on the test server right now.

@Hug_Motsu

atm this all sounds like “lets just give them something so they can be quite, lols”

Sad but true.

@Zhalyd_Lyehin

According to the attributes, you can spam as many of them as you want in a system to make the delay irrelevant.

Not true, every time cloak is engaged you have 15 minutes of anti-cloak invulnerability.

@Lieberfussel

Timer is way to long.

Indeed.

@Sophie_Krumin

Why not just deploy that yourself?

It impacts blues as well as hostiles.

@Brisc_Rubal

You think it’s a good idea that somebody moving a super through a hostile area with no structures and gets decloaked by one of these things is suddenly a warp to point on your anomaly scanner? Really?

Yet CCP seem okay that a freighter moving through high security space can be blown up by multi-boxing gankers with calculated brutality?

With a 15 minute invulnerability, any ship has just enough time to jump to cyno, cloak, and then log. Besides, if you are a super pilot, shouldn’t you have a support fleet with you anyway?

@Jeremiah_Saken

scrap it and make it submarine hunting, special probes to hunt cloakers.

This would be better than the current implementation for sure, cuts out the middleman.

@Azalais_Selenica

So how does it work? If there are 20 of those things does it imply 20 times more often decloak burns?

They get a free 15 minutes of safety when a cloak is turned on. 20 mobile observatories would likely mean the cloak deactivate soon after the 15 minutes are over, but even on a t1 cloak its only a 30 second wait to re-cloak, with that 15 minute invulnerability starting over again.

@Dav_Varan

Scan probes are broken , not finding cosmic signatures.

Damn, 10 hours its been broken for then.

@Sateen_von_Jager

What is the range of the Mobile Observatory’s decloaking ability?

System wide.

@Na_av

While I agree that cloaky camping is afk gameplay, it’s also sometimes the only way to create content in systems plagued by bots and very cautious players.

Bots are a problem that CCP must solve, but good luck getting cautious players to change behaviours. If you want on demand PvP, do the instanced arena CCP added.

@Caysy_Pergl

The structure is too expensive to manufacture to be disposable.

40 Million each. Not awful, but still, if it doesn’t solve the problem they will be a waste.

@The_Dungeon_Master

First nullification and stabs, now cloaking, WTF will it be next?! +500% Align time!?

Stop getting upset because you can’t solo destroy miners and ratters to pad your killboard.

@back_labackslack_chew

30 MINUTES OF IMMUNITY

Only if the 30 minutes is per system, in that it only resets once a ship jumps to another system.

@The_Dungeon_Master

There have been times when I have been in a cloaky ship, watching miners mine and waiting for the right moment to shoot them. I do not think CCP should make an item to counter that, if the miner wants to be safer they can mine in HS instead of J-space.

Mining in Null is much safer than High Security space, because you can shoot the bad people before they kill you and take all your stuff for the cost of a crappy destroyer.

That’s 100 posts read though. I think I’ve seen enough.

CCP, don’t waste this opportunity to bring a positive improvement to the game.

[Algathas]

This has to be one of the most garbage ideas yet. Unless actives are immune this shouldn’t be there whatsoever. While I hope it doesn’t make it into the game, I am sure it will.

[Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras]

@Litsea_Reticulata

a keyboard macro is all it takes.

and that is breaking the EULA as brisc already mentioned before about that.

[Matthew_Falzoni]

@Dark_Hoshino

So basically you sub to be able to hunt while cloaked or escape from others and ccp just basically tells us no well give prey the chance to detect you system wide or you get detected while trying to evade not really feeling this nerf to cloaking up CCP some of the changes you guys are making are absolute garbage for the game…

You are only huntung the stupid people who refuse to dock up and avoid you. If you come to my system in a cloaky ship be prepared to get bubbled on a gate or fight on the ESS where you cant cyno in 100’s of your creepy friends.

@Brisc_Rubal

That’s breaking the EULA. CCP can’t design the game around what players may do to break the EULA.

This slow mode is annoying, make CCP stop using it as the default.

CCP might not want to design the game around breaking the EULA, but they sure as hell need to consider how low a barrier to entry it is to defeat a change that has taken years to become front of mind. Like wars, cloaks spent a long time in a unhealthy state. It will not hurt to start off with a heavy hand and then relax, maybe it will hurt legitimate players more than AFK ones, yes, but I have been impacted by AFK campers in more places and for longer than I ever was by an active pilot.

[Money_Pacquiao]

How does the 10min Activation Delay work for the Mobile Observatory?

Let’s say the MOOB is deployed at 7:00.

1.) Will it do its job immediately after deployment at 7:00?
2.) Or, will it do its job at 7:10?

[Litsea_Reticulata]

The pulses look to go out about every 10 minutes, so, option 2, but if the cloaked ships are still in the invulnerability state, there will be no effect.

[BLACK_74]

@Brisc_Rubal Hi! Would you be so kind and suggest Sisi mirror? I’ve came back in March and still not able to use Sisi with my new passwords. Would be happy to spend some time with testing these new things.

[Excoecaria_Agallocha]

@Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras

and that is breaking the EULA as brisc already mentioned before about that.

Just like how nobody speeds because its breaking the law?

@CCP_Paradox

Singularity should be updated within the next hour if all goes to plan, and the Deployables will be seeded on the in game market for you to try out.

Only 5 years too late to stop Aunt Jemmima’s southern kitchen bots camping out the entirety of Providence for months. And that was just the last group of many to be paid to do it

Good work CCP, good work.

So expect a fix for time zone tanking on structures by 2031?

[CAUCAUCAUCAU]

Hi CCP,

first of all, thank you for continuing on shaking up the meta with big changes, change is life and change is good.

I would actually like to add more transparency to this than just RNG decloaking you - would it be possible to have a chance to add heat damage to the activated cloaking device, forcing you to decloak and repair it or have it burned out eventually?

Would help against AFK cloaking, also against streaming intel on twitch in nullsec.

[Amelie_Dethahal]

Truthfully Brisc we don’t know how they’ll be used. I might hunt for a month and not see one, they might be in every system I go in. I doubt that plexers or ratters will deploy them regularly, but some will.
Equally there are plenty of pilots out there who just hate cloaking in general. The same ones who camp gates in a corvette and broadcast to everyone in local what you’re flying when they see you cloak up or hurl abuse at you just for being cloaked. They’ll deploy these just because they can and it will make life harder for the cloaky pilot.
The issue is that this solution provides an unintended (given what CCP and CSM have been saying), risk-free passive counter to active gameplay and this is EVE so I feel comfortable in saying that at some point it will absolutely be used as such. How much, I don’t know; how effective will it be, I don’t know, but it will have an impact. That impact could be avoided completely by allowing cloaked pilots to respond before they’re decloaked which will the. only penalises afk pilots but I appreciate that they may require significant dev work. Alternatively the impact could be reduced by extending the refresh period; or ameliorated by banning from empire space (at least for me ).
I get that this is a complex problem to solve and CCP will need to make decisions based on more than one style of gameplay. It’s a thankless task and something that really needs to be fixed so I applaud them and you guys in CSM for trying. I just wanted to point out that the solution proposed does have wider implications and propose alternatives. By virtue of the fact that you’re on heat discussing it with me I know I’ve been heard (even if you don’t agree) which is all I can ask for so thank you for that.

[Purrrnce_Benuse]

Why would heat damage help against AFK cloaky camping, the thing the mobile observatory is designed to counter? It would only hurt active cloaked players that get decloaked, which is a big enough unwarrented punishment for being in system as it is.

[Paris]

@Matthew_Falzoni

I know there is a strong desire to create balance, but unless the mobile observatory has a significant impact on cloak reactivation and sig bloom, a simple pixel reader and keyboard macro will defeat this deployable easily.

There will always be a cooldown after the cloak drop, so if you are 100% afk it’s still very possible to get caught

[Stelerris]

you are making nullsec safer than highsec null is supposed to have risks not easy botting gameplay and by making this change to cloaking you are just making it easier for people to bot your game and i will not play the game if this comes to the live server.

[Jiraan]

Thank yall this has been needed since 07

[Milostiev]

I like the changes overall, and the fact that you are addressing them but i see a few problem scenarios with this system and not much in the way of addressing them :

1. Cloak reactivation delay varies between ships, on t2 ships it is very low, sometimes 5-6s, but on some ships (like stratios/astero), the reactivation delay is quite long … it’s so long that when you jump into a gatecamp and you have an SSD, you have wait a bit before warping off.
2. No separation between legit cloaky gameplay and abusive cloaky gameplay; tengu/bomber/recon cloaked for hs on end in system while the guy goes afk is probably what you want to address but … what if you are in a blockade runner trying to smuggle goods and you have to wait for things to die down before you dock/get out ?
   Some sort of consumption of a consumable automatically to keep the cloak up for transport ships might be needed, one that is bulky enough that combat ships can’t carry it.
   Or maybe a unique bonus to the hulls themselves.
   In the presently tested form, ninja logistics will be made muuuuuuch harder.
3. There is no separation by class of ship, the smallest ship can stay cloaked for as long as a recon/cov ops/blockade runner can. (the same thing is with the WCS and new bubble invulnerability mods who have no separation between t2 ship designed to act like this, and t1 frigate)
4. Finally, what happens if you are doing a site/something in hostile space (some sort of activity that starts a timer) and you are called away right that instance.
   You can’t warp away and cloak because they can decloak you in 15min, and you can’t log off that moment because you will linger in space long enough to be probed and killed due to your yellow/red combat timer.
   Some sort of function that allows you to be automatically logged off at the end of the timer would help in this instance.

Overall, it feels like the balance will be squeue too much in favor of the counters.
Otherwise it’s a good change, should have been implemented a long time ago.

[Wadiest_Yong]

@Brisc_Rubal

@Wadiest_Yong

Indeed, the complaints mostly view the “solution” as being too strong because it isn’t focused on AFK cloaky camping but drags every cloak into a new problem.

This is true, but it’s not a huge problem - the solution is literally two fold: 1) be at your keyboard; 2) recloak when you’ve been decloaked. There’s enough of a spin up time that if you see somebody dropping one of these you can easily warp to a safe, decloak and recloak, warp back before the thing is even active.

A devblog at this point could very well state the following:
"To prove that you are not an AFK cloaked camper you will have to decloak."
That is the “solution” they are seeking to implement.
While your remark “warp to a safe, decloak and recloak, warp back…” on its own is proof of not being an AFK pilot, so is “warp to a safe, warp back” or “warp” or even “dscan”. or “change speed”. But none of this matters.

Another proof that cloaking itself is being targeted, not AFK cloaked camping:
On Singularity I deployed an Observatory in a wormhole. It was functional and decloaked my ship after
the timer lapsed, 7 min in. Without Local, why would real “AFK cloaked camping” be a problem there ? Presence isn’t spotted, neither can the AFK’er gather intel - he’s AFK and can’t use dscan or his eyes.

@Brisc_Rubal

This is the easiest, least dev time intensive solution to the issue of AFK cloaky camping I’ve seen

There is a large group of highly active, non-afk’ing cloak users, from solo hunters via blops to cloaked fleets and even transports that merits a far more creative, balanced and especially targeted solution and some more dev transpiration. This, frankly, is more collateral than fix. In the margin, taken with the changes to nullification scouting really gets whacked twice.

Here’s some more irony: we all see botting as a problem, at least the well-meaning ones among us. What about a similar deployable for mining, switching off mining equipment, or its sibling, a deployable that switches off weapons/armor/shield mods. Perhaps the now larger number of people in the collateral damage group would be important enough to reconsider, and deserve a more dev time intensive solution ?

@Brisc_Rubal

And I have faith that CCP will iterate if it’s that bad

With the workload being what it is, unless we scream bloody murder and the “project” now off the list of priorities after implementation, that takes years. Most of us do not share that faith.

Yes, mediation is hard

[Jaiden_Solo]

Nullseccers just want safer krabbing. Nullsec in big bloc already safest PVE in the game.

[Neo_Bladedrifter]

This is better than nerfing the cloak module directly.

[Tipa_Riot]

@Arrendis

As opposed to that being true for literally all of human history? And, let’s face it, beyond. The loudest chick gets fed first. The strongest stimulus gets responded to.

That’s why humanity invented something like democracy, where the majority decides after weighting the arguments and not some loud or powerful minority.

[IcyMidnight]

This always seemed like a non-issue to me. I have lived in null, wormholes, and briefly lowsec. I have been cloaky camped and occasionally done the cloaky camping myself. The issue was never AFK cloaky ships, but at-K cloaky ships. If a cloaky camper is AFK, they are no threat to you but this new deployable allows you to attack them; if the cloaky camper is at keys, they can simply recloak (or warp then cloak).

It seems like the biggest problem is that people get freaked out by seeing someone in local that they can’t place and then they start trying to talk to the cloaky camper which just encourages the camper to stick around. A simple solution would be if the deployable simply disabled local for a couple of hours. The AFK cloaky camper offers just as much threat as before (none), but the residents of the system can feel safer since they can’t see anyone in local, and are blocked from talking in local to the camper thereby increasing the chances that the camper moves on. Boom. A simple, easy solution.