Yawn, see again you are not thinking of the bigger picture. Cloak fuel… so… cloak fuel not only caps the time limit of a single cloaking session but also the total cloaking for the whole time you are out.
For you cowering in your own sov this is not a problem. Dock in any citadel and you have a stash of fuel.
But for those who are exploring, hunting, hauling wormhole loot, just passing through, this will severely ruin their gameplay everywhere. Unless you are part of the blue donut there are vast swaths of space you can’t dock at to refuel. So you are saying players should have to go all the way back to whereever every 45 minutes to refuel?
Again you are thinking of only you and not many playstyles and not pilots that are outside of the donut. Many players stay out for hours, days, weeks, etc before they go back to friendly space. But you would ruin their gameplay so that you could further buff your krabbing.
No ship is unscannable anymore, the signal strength equation has a lower limit of 0.08 which is scannable with a covops + virtues. Which is probably what will be done anyway because it forces expense/effort on the enemy side for really low investment.
Also, you are missing the key point a lot of the time:
The goal is not to “deal with” the decloaking structure. It’s to conceal your activity up until it’s time to engage. This is, roughly 90%, what covops is about.
If your hand is forced, in any way:
You are decloaked in your safe, spot this fact, and cloak (appearing for a while and then vanishing off dscan)
You engage the observatory
Your active state has been revealed and the enemy has an advance warning to dock up.
That’s basically it.
While I usually refrain from comments like this, do please enlighten us what we’re doing wrong that our ships somehow have a tendency to become very expensive killmails really quick when things go south.
Fair point to raise honestly, but - I’d actually eat THAT over system-wide “activity check” decloak. 40mil for a periodic grid-wide decloak pulse. Think something like for covering a mining op - puts a time constraint on getting into a good spot and introduces that little bit of a grey area that can lead to mistakes.
Yes this is correct. but the next thing you say is not correct.
Nope. Nothing has been written in stone.
I have suggested that the fuel could be in stations - which players can travel between if they so choose.
I have suggested that the fuel could be deployed in >scannable< deployable.
No, I don’t believe that, at all.
45 mins worth of cloak time is abundance of time to get ■■■■ done.
(and 45 min would only be applied to bombers/frigate sized ships … larger ships would have a larger fuel bay, thus longer cloak-time…)
furthermore, THAT minimum of 45min would only count in null sov, nowhere else.
The refueling stations are not equal to friendly space stations.
it can be all NPC stations.
it can be a corp/alliance “staging” refueling depo.
if you get mercenaries, friends or alts to destroy the observatory, you have begun your PVP…
you just hafto farm it long enough until the enemy cant or wont deploy another one.
Then its just like old times again. Nothing has changed.
in essence, this structure delay you’re afk cloaking for x amount of days… as no sane person will keep deploying them or keep them burning 24/7.
basically… this.
how often does things go south really? and are you really honest of yourself about why they are going south? … I don’t think you are. And I think your still isk positive.
months in the same ship, in null sov… ? active 24/7? … really…? I doubt that.
Uhm, when he said it would affect “hunters/explo/blablabla everywhere” and I state
“no only in sov null”.
I believe that… I’m using common sense and logic, whereas the argument he portrayed was out of his fears. (or he simply rejecting an idea he does not even understand?)
so ye anyways…
perhaps I’m the only sane person here who isn’t subject to fears or rash decisions, completely unwilling to listen to anything else then my own mind. idk?
Most root causes of things going south: misjudged the situation.
Second most: Lack of attention.
You doubt that, and I’m starting a third month in space in hostile sov null. And it’s not the first time either.
Um… I’m not sure we can trust your judgement on cloaky logistics. That takes some actual experience in the subject.
(Sort of refueling is done currently on the rare occasions hunters are out long enough to burn their ozone stacks. No stations, depos or anything that can be scanned down by enemy is involved. Sometimes there’s cans.)
Scannable = dead.
You substitute in-game experience and knowledge of mechanics with “common sense” that in no way reflects actual state of the game.
Most NULL space has no NPC stations anywhere, let alone close.
As I said you are thinking like a blue donut krab. Not everyone wants to be part of your donut sorry.
So, they have to somehow get in first to pre-place fuel before they can even come in your space, then you will just blow it up before they come back.
Adding more complexity to an already garbage idea isn’t making it better.
You are not getting what we told you. Destroying it is the signal to dock up. There won’t be any to “farm” because the krab, upon seeing it destroyed will dock and stay docked until active enemy moves on.
Actually some groups do well against droppers and things go south vs them quite often. There are certain groups I use more caution in dropping or possibly avoid because they actually will bring the pain. That can already be done without a deployable.
Many times I will have a toon out in enemy space for a month or more. Not on 24/7, and not AFK but being active when it is logged in. It would definitely be more annoying and reduce time away from “home” if I had to constantly refuel. (or I just wouldn’t bother to begin with) I guess that’s the point of why you want fuel, to force people to play how you want them to.
And exactley why do you think its impossible for ccp to deploy more stuctures?
(i dont mean they should deploy them in sov null, but atleast closer then current range… if its far from low/highsec that is…
who said it should be as fragile as the mobile observatory?
why can’t it be as tough as the pos guns hull tank?
i know! what great fun for everyone!
will the hunter be hunted…? hearth racing to think off.
also, i guess if you want, you could say that this is also a “nuclear detergent” - but alot more fun. What will you have guarding the depo?
I guess that depends on where you place the refuel deployable… will it be outside sov null (where the guards can Perma cloak?)
or will you just simply devote a couple/many? of chars into being logged off, ready to go at the depo?
(as opposed to having 30 accounts in 30 systems… perhaps now you have all your alts at the depo and are active with only 1 ship?
idk…
so many choices and every one of them matters.
what i perhaps should have said… “i doubt that’s going to be possible in the future when you cant afk camp” unless your bot.
they reflect my actual state of the game. and that’s also the majority state of the game.
Yes, I get it. You just don’t get that I get it, so you don’t even bother to try to understand what I respond.
Destroying it is a signal to dock up, yeah I agree… BUT having a cloaky neutral in local is also a signal to dock up.
go figure if “signals” are even noticed or not… thats another topic.
Uhm. no.
if i wanted to force people to play how i wanted them to… a cloak fuel would not be my suggestion.
But to recap my role in this thread:
I came here to tell ccp they screwed up with the mobile observatory - it’s not good at all, it has no point at all. its just another isk-sink.
but … since I’m not a “whiner” as you suggest.
I felt the need to also come with a suggestion that are based on CCP intended goals/mission/roadmap… whatever… cloaky hunters should need to be active ye…
you can say your active “all the time”… if you need to be active for more then 45 min to cyno something in… well… then I dont think you are active.
you are passive… waiting for a “clutch” moment. Waiting is not an active activiety.
But sure what do i know… you say your active flying around et c etc… ye ok if you want to say that… do that. I believe it when you leave the system and go to refuel.
You don’t know how field logistics and structures in strategic warfare work
You are misinformed on many aspects of covops - such as “You don’t solo in covops”
Your entire idea is built on “well it COULD be anything”
Going off point 2 of the above - structure is likely to be either assaulted by a force I can’t pick on (there’s a big divide in response between anchoring a structure in hostile sov or going for an ihub hack and just romping around dropping on miners.) or hit in my off-time and mopped up.
Even currently, hunter can be hunted and they are if they make a mistake. And that mistake can be as dumb as running off to let the dog out and forgetting to cloak after they cynoed in a hauler to do logistics.
(Incidentally - I have done the very thing above.)
To think of it, CCP’s been talking about covert staging areas for years now, alas - nothing materialized so for now it’s hobo-cans and not much more.
Hotdrops and cloaky camping have this amusingly screwed up dynamic where the hunter is in control of a lot of variables so stuff can get really, really meta.
You don’t want the hunter to unleash 30 of his friends in stealth bombers on you, but you want to be just enticing enough for him to crack open a beer and say on comms “Watch this guys, I’m gonna solo drop this Myrm…”
One concept in this dynamic that I would honestly like to see expanded upon is some of the concepts Abyssal Deadspace has, especially this sort of “mutual blindness”.
Anomalies are really easy to drop into, as they are all single locations. Beyond some meta-level fun and baiting, it’s a straightforward drop. On the other side you have complexes/escalations which are often gated/deadspace, where you can see the target but it’s very hard to reach inside the site.
Abyssals have an interesting dynamic where you don’t see the target, but you know it’s there and you have a rough time limit on getting into position. There is little external factors (rats) coming into play either.
The target is likewise blind to you setting up on them (unless they have an alt observing the trace, of course) and committed for a set amount of time. They are, however, technically in a separate system and unless someone deliberately looks for a trace with probes or sees one on grid somewhere - they may wind up completely oblivious to the runner.
(This is NOT to say that they don’t have flaws in this context - selection of ships that can appear out of a trace is pretty narrow, you won’t be loaded for a Gila and have a Carrier emerge for instance)
It’s honestly a concept worth exploring when it comes to PvE and Cloaking. I’d hazard a quick guess that a shift towards this mechanic for anomalies could render a lot of cloakycamping redundant.
no, but how does this the specefic “indepth knowledge” relate to the topic?
no, but how does this the specefic “indepth knowledge” relate to the topic?
You dont solo much in a bomber, regardless on how much you wait.
bombers are of a frigate size, thus a ship that would have a 45 min cloak timer. you want more time? go in with a battleship.
YES. CONGRATUALATIONS. ANYTHING is allowed when it comes to ideas that are beeing applied to a pixel sandbox.
nope. I have never said it should be a structure.
I have previously said it should be a container. (obviously not deployable in range of anything else)
I’ve never heard this. but this space-container/fuel depo could be it.
Yeah… this game is lacking when it comes to “dungeon” pve. and npc ai.
aswell as the usual pve vs pvp fits.
so ccp should really try and develop more dungeon style pvp that bridge the gap between the pvp and pve fits.
if they want people to stick with the game that is… as now, its just appealing to nerds and their alts. the usual “people meta”.
Anchorable containers. Already there and in active use. This is where the specific indepth knowledge of point 2, “field logistics”, comes into play and this is how it relates to the topic.
Anyway, Wadiest’s image sums it up just about right: the horse is dead. Pretty much everyone actually involved in this gameplay change is fully aware of its actual results and the fact that if the recent changes are anything to go by - that this thread isn’t a discussion, it’s an announcement and they will go forward with it regardless of our opinion on the matter.
Geez… I don’t have the time to read the 785 previous posts to see if anyone else has reported it already… and then I guess the Devs don’t have time to read them either…
Anyway…
Went on Singularity,
Put a Cloaking device,
Activated it and saw a nice little thingy with a 15 minute timer,
Deactivated the cloaking device… and the timer thingy was still there ticking down. (it should have disappeared after de-cloaking, in my opinion)
Re-activated the cloaking device, and the timer reset to 15 minutes (as I would have expected, so all fine here)
they cant be scanned down thou?
so I don’t see how your advanced understanding of “field logistics” applies.
and even if they did apply??
congratulations you now have an “edge” that the current meta afk cloaky campers don’t know.
Yeah, when faced with the “anything should be possible argument” … you just say the idea is dead in the water. instead of carrying an actual argument.
but to respond.
I agree, we shouldn’t try to make the dead horse apply to the current situation. We should just delete cloaks.
You might be right… but at the same time… #test-server-feedback
the feedback is: it’s an item that only shifts the current “afk” meta into troll logins and uncatchable botting.
at the cost of 1b per 24hrs + virtuepod investment, system owners get the “bonus” to try and scan down a bot in-warp for a grand total of ~2 minutes every 60 minutes.
this item isn’t even gonna get deployed, it might at first… but then people will just relise that they can kill it for all of eternety and sov owners have to make a decision…
do i want to pay 1b/24hrs to spam scan the entire system and all the “krabbers”… warp to the ships and try and find a neutral in a system with 200 ships… or do i just let it go and live with a cloaky camper in system - like always? Please note, 1b/24hrs is the cost of chaining one mobile observatory, if it last its full lifetime.
You could be right, but we won’t know for sure until the thing is active on TQ.
In the mean time let’s just …
After 13 days of defending alternatives, we kinda get the gist. Let’s wait. Then, if necessary, you can pitch your idea in the player ideas section, although you know as well as the rest of us, that once deployed on TQ it will remain deployed for a long time.
You can let go for now. This thread is, after all, for discussing the new deployable, not every alternative. Thank you for understanding.
Bold statement, especially if everyone above average iq doesn’t necessarily have to agree with you, and very likely, does not. I’ll leave that to you.
You may have wondered why I didn’t formulate “arguments” countering your idea. The reason is quite simple.
Why should I or anyone else start to dissect your cloak fuel idea and give counter arguments on selected details when the idea itself is based on a false premise, an idea even inspired by a poorly disguised ulterior motive.
You, and equally minded players, have developed negative emotions about cloaking in general, not knowing how to deal with a situation with the mechanics at your disposal, or unwilling to change your usual ways of playing the game . Hence cloaks should be made near impossible to use, or even in your own words
[quote=“Hug_Motsu, post:792, topic:311897”]
we shouldn’t try to make the dead horse apply to the current situation. We should just delete cloaks
[/quote] and
? Perhaps cloaks aren’t the real problem then. I’ve had my share of dealings with (non-)(AFK) cloakies in systems. The first choice you make is either try to fight or move to avoid. The rest follows from that decision.
If no afk cloakies can be caught with this new deployable, ccp will very soon hear about it, and adjust the parameters. That’s what they have said they will do. Will it appease the cloak critics ? Never.
And lastly
You’ve posted your idea, some welcomed it, some didn’t, as usual It was turned inside out and arguments followed. The discussion was open, even if it was in the wrong thread. 13 days of it.
