I love how you don’t use this months MER which shows a drop in money supply.
Money supply growth also is not an indicator of inflation, nor are plex, since plex have been driven by other known factors such as increased use & investment speculation.
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Economy has 1 quadrillion isk (1139 trillion isk) a month going into it.
You cannot deny inflation.
Money supply is the total isk in the game, not the amount of new isk entering the economy each month…
You don’t even know what you are looking at with these numbers.
As for inflation, CPI is one of the primary measures for inflation, and that’s pretty much stable. Which means that if an individual product (such as plex) is moving in price it’s probably not an inflationary reason behind it’s move, but a supply & demand reason. Since the rest of the economy is not matching the movement in price.
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everything you just said is wrong.
also, you claimed there is no inflation then you say is caused by other things? just stop talking please your clearly arguing to be right and its not helping anything.
CPI does not cause inflation, its the means you use to calculate it.
Items can move in price without inflation.
Inflation is the rough buying value of your dollar, not a measure of the prices of individual things.
And yes, CPI is one of the means you use to measure/calculate inflation. That is what I just said.
So please, try again, and read first this time.
Ok, its clear you are clueless. time to ignore you. next time you get in big boy talks, know what your talking about. back editing things will only cause me to stat screen shotting but at this point talking to you is pointless.
ps. Inflation is not the value of goods, its the growth of that value.
The only person editing posts in this thread is you, it shows those little edit counts on the right next to the time stamp. Like 4 edits to that post of yours 2 hours ago. Now sure, typos are fine to fix and I’m not calling you out on fixing them… but on trying to lie.
No… Inflation is the buying power, or rather loss of buying power of your dollar.
Anyway… you’ve agreed that CPI is a measure of inflation, so please explain how you believe a stable CPI means there is a problem with inflation happening in EVE.
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Inflation describes the phenomenon where the buying power of money goes down, generally because the supply of currency has increased faster than the general economy. Deflation is the opposite, where money leaves circulation or otherwise becomes rarer and thus more in demand and can buy more.
There is very little inflation going on in the general economy of Eve Online. Yes, ISK has been entering the economy at an increased rate the last few years, but so have general goods and the economy has expanded. There is more ISK but also more stuff so things cost the same, even if there is much more of it. The buying power of ISK has been mostly maintained for “in-game” items for lack of a better term.
Now, I would agree if you look at the RMT sector of the economy, things are different. There has been inflation in items linked to PLEX and real-world services. It costs me more ISK to by a skin, resculpt certificate or game time than a few years ago.
But that sector of the economy is heavily influenced by out-of-game factors since PLEX and related items can only be created by people giving CCP real world cash. I do think the expansion of the game’s monetary supply impacts on this somewhat, but so do supply and demand factors of the real world, meaning there is only so much a game designer can do. The most power to move the RMT market is actually held by the marketing department who can hold a PLEX sale, not the game designers.
But to finish, I am concerned the massive increase of wealth flooding into the game is having negative consequences for the game, and might lead to catastrophic ones, but so far CCP has balanced the ISK and stuff flooding into the economy so general inflation isn’t actually a problem. The same amount of ISK can buy you a similar ship today as it could several years ago.
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Correct.
In essence, Farming mobs in the game is the form of “money printing”. This results in massive isk into the game which is why we see 1139 trillion being created every month. Since the metric data is telling us that 65,00 trillion come ratting, its probably here the inflation is being generated.
The isk is entering the market, but eve’s would not notice the inflation significantly because its market system is region specific, so it would be hard to notice a lot of it. to find this inflation we’d have to start looking at region to region trade values over the last set of years. because the production s hire (due to goons) the prices rise 10% or so per an item, so a shift of 350m on a ship to 385m is not really noticeable.
another option is that the isk is not all being used, horded by some leader somewhere for war reserves, which is very likely knowing goons, etc. In the end we do know that over 1139 trillion is entering the economy every month, and that isk just does not, “not effect” the economy.
Are you paying attention? There is no inflation, or at least very little. Yes, ISK is being printed every month, but it is also leaving the economy. In fact, if you had actually fully processed the economic situation from the report linked in the OP, you can see that more ISK left the economy than entered it:
In case that isn’t clear 131T ISK was created, 72T was removed by NPC sinks, and another 95T left the economy on accounts that went dormant or were banned. That means the total money supply decreased by ~35T ISK.
The 1,139T number is the total money supply, not the ISK created each month. The total amount of ISK in the game actually decreased in January.
I don’t even understand the rest of your post, but you seem to have a poor grasp on what is going on with the economy of Eve. The MER is a very transparent look at how the economy of New Eden works and there is no inflation hiding in some remote region or someone hoarding ISK somewhere that it doesn’t show.
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Are you insane? Are you paying attention?
Let me put this into perspective for you. The Economy is gaining 1284 trillion isk a month. Do you understand that 1284 trillion is is being added to the pockets and players of people and entities in the game and is NOT BEING SPENT.
That means the value of isk is dropping or bound to do so shortly. The sinks are not sufficient enough, probably due to extremely efficient nullsec structures (free repairs, high refine rates, etc).
Second
A faucet is not a sink. They are two completly things, but at the end of the day the “EOM” (in short the monthly total value) is gaining 1284 trillion isk a month.
Google EOM please. k thx bye
If all of that is true, I have no idea why you think it would be possible to break up larger alliances and I definitely don’t understand why you think doing so would “fix” inflation.
I didn’t say they were the same. I said the CPI is the primary indicator of inflation. Your own graph there demonstrates my point. The money supply has increased while the average CPI has actually gone down. That’s a good sign - it means that there are sufficient isk sinks to suck up all the extra money so that it’s not resulting in major jumps in the costs of everyday items that are included in the CPI. So what’s the problem again?
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NO IT IS NOT!
Re-read the report and train Comprehension 5. Only 131T ISK entered the economy in January while 167T left. The number you cite is the total active ISK in the economy, not the amount entering each month.
I think you have established that you are off in your own world at this point. Once you have a better grasp on the facts, I’d be happy to discuss with you further, but until then, have fun in your own personal reality.
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Ugghh…you almost had me at complex system, but this is a terrible analogy. Yes, EVE is a complex system, but it is not a single organism. It is more like and eco-system.
Further, your claims about how things work in the game is wildly off.
You start out with a claim of complexity then turn around and make such a simplistic claim it beggars belief. Which is it? Do we have a complex system or a simply system. The above is simple, not complex.
Wait…you just got done telling us that the power blocks are the same. Let me quote you at you,
I have been on both sides of the battle between BoB and Goons. I was in the GBC and latter moved over to Goons. The two blocks have/had very different cultures and norms and taboos. Ratting during a strategic operation in Goons is not forbidden. However, not getting enough participation recorded will eventually get you into trouble. While in the GBC when there was a deployment if you weren’t at the front you’d better have a damn good explanation. Goons, IMO, are much more adaptive.
Is that you Greyscale? This was Greyscale’s big wet dream and it was stupid. Of course, it was stupid in part because he wanted to do it by making living in NS Hell. Thankfully his vision was never implemented and he is gone now. And one thing I noted in watching him flounder around and fail at his project is exactly as Brisc Rubal notes, the player alliances and coalitions would react back against his changes and minimize the downside he would try and impose. That is were you get complexity. That the players are not merely passive elements of the game, but can and do respond to the changes the Devs implement and in ways that often surprises the Devs.
As for “immortal” entities about the only one that can lay claim to that title are Goons, and part of their success is as I noted above. They are quite adaptive and not so rigid. The GBC/BoB was far less adaptable and were very…elitist/exclusive.
I always love these suggestions. They are, as usual, fundamentally anti-sandbox. That is it takes the very essence of the game, “Do what thou wild shall be the whole of the law” and changes it do, “Do what I [some rando player] think is in the best of interest of the game.”
Actually no. I’ve been on plenty of fleets where we don’t set them temp blue and the FC says, “Don’t shoot those guys.” Broadcasting targets is indeed a thing. So unless you want to get rid of that…and never mind the good old school method of the FC or a designated target caller calling out targets over voice comms.
Hahahaha…
Of course skill injectors let players catch up. Just as PLEX let rich players transfer ISK to new players who don’t want to or can’t grind for ISK.
Just…no. Or at the very least explain the pathway for this inflation. Injectors create no new SP. Every injector must be filled by SP from an existing character who earned those SP the good old fashioned way of time. If SP were being created de novo you might have a point.
Why am I suddenly reminded of Modern Monetary Theory…holy crap…
FYI, I used to work at the Bureau of Labor Statistics. I worked in one of the research divisions…that specialized in price index numbers.
You are correct that the CPI does not calculate inflation in the sense Friedman noted–i.e. inflation being a result of an increase in the money supply. The CPI, as are all price indices, is an attempt to estimate a cost of living index. A true cost of living index is actually unobservable since it would require knowing a person’s “utility function”. So we use a price index which typically provides an upper bound to a cost of living index.
A price index will typically take into account everything that influences the cost of a fixed basket of goods. So for example, if an item becomes more popular (i.e. the demand goes up, and thus the price increases) it will be reflected in the price index. Is this inflation? Not in the sense noted above. It is a change in the relative prices. But the same is also true as an item becomes less popular. Or there is a change in the production process that lowers costs and over time lowers the relative price.
Now, if the money supply increases faster than the real economy we generally expect to see prices rising as people spend that money. So, absent the effects noted above, if the money supply grows too fast then we’d expect to see the CPI and other price indices going up. We don’t.
This suggests that the growth rate of the money supply is fine.
Your error appears to be that you are confusing growth in the money supply with inflation. That is, unless the money supply growth is flat we’ll get inflation. But that is wrong. We have to look at the net growth in the real economy as well.
For example, here is the growth of M1 in the US from FRED,
Clearly the money supply has grown in the US.
Yet there is little inflation as measured by the percentage change GDP Deflator as calculated by the BEA, also from FRED,
In short, you took a valid point and went completely off the rails with it.
No. @Nevyn_Auscent is correct and schooled you in how to read the MERs. You are quite simply wrong.
Ugghhh…
Value and price are not the same thing. Value is a subjective measure that depends on the individual. For example I hate acorn squash. So my value for it is zero. Some others love it. If their subjective value of acorn squash is above the price in the grocery store they buy it and consume it.
Inflation, over time, reduces the purchasing power of what ever is being used as currency. That is, a year from now the same amount of currency will buy less than it does now. It has little to do with value which is a product of your personal subjective preferences.
No.
We don’t. Look at the graph you posted. We see that 34.11 Trillion ISK entered the game (in December). You can’t even read the MERs correctly. You take the End-of-Month Number, 1,139.7899 and subtract off the Beginning-of-Month number 1,105.6777 which indicates 34.1122 Trillion ISK entered the game.
Further, this is EVE not an advanced economy like we see IRL. Most ISK sits in people’s wallets. There are no highly developed financial markets that can put that ISK to work. Normally, either you would invest your extra RL ISK or the bank would. But we don’t have that in EVE. I have something like 90 billion ISK sitting in the wallet of my primary ISK maker in game. Because of the stunted financial markets it tends to just sit there most of the time. It doesn’t get out into the wider economy.
Seriously, when it comes to economics or even reading the MERs you have just displayed a massive level of ignorance…
And exactly how long have you been playing this game. This is my main, I’ve had him since the beginning. I checked your history in game…your posting alt (assuming it is not your main) has been around since Feb 16 2019…a whopping 8 days (maybe 9 depending on TZ).
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I would not disagree with labeling mmo’s (especially sandboxes) as “eco-systems” its probably an accurate way of describing them though i did not really label them as much as describe their nature.
Please dont make statements like this with out specifics, it seems emotion not intellectual.
The above (two) examples are a way to describe the state of eve (industrialized player base) vs how it should be. These twp examples are drawing a contract of what the games population is now, and why interaction is “low”.
In truth we are social creatures, the human race. Thus, a game full of 2-3 larger entities, and lots of one that are not active is a sign of a significant problem. I was explaining to my corp members last night that this is something i have never seen reversed. Once a game hits this system of existence, it dies. I have asked other designers i know if they have seen it reversed, and they said “no” and “never, and i would not even know where to start”. They are highly accomplished in their fields and well known (working at major title companies).
This is single handedly the reason for eve’s decline. I am certain that if this game resolved this issue you’d see a significant boost in population and retention rates (provided the players came back and give it a chance to work but word of mouth is important for all of that).
I cannot express how dangerous this problem is to eve. What i can say is that in most cases of design, resetting the system back to way things are is a good way to reverse the state of a population. For example, our societies are degrading for various reasons. how would you fix that? the truth is you would correct the family unit, as it makes up the community, which makes up the city, which makes up states/ Providences, countries/nations, and ultimately a species.
In many ways eve is a reflection of the real works social moral state. to reverse all of this we need families (corporations), but we cannot do that when all the city is one big family of redneck in-laws who think the same way, if you pardon the metaphor.
Not Grayscale, and not Heman. I do believe that breaking the entities up a lot will help disperse the population of the game rather significantly. changes in the diplomacy system would also increase over all pvp, and with the removal of either local (ie like wh space) or intel channels people randomly showing up on your “overview” while your in a big mining fleet would be significantly more common as you’d have no real warnings (through intel invalidation). Im a little worried that would be a lot for nullsec players to go to wh based mechanics in eve thus i advocate for “player channel” removal.
I do not agree with making null “harder” though i think there should be some changes made to it (like shifting rats away from being the primary threat to miners, removing them from belts in place of more environmentally driven risks (gas cloud explosions, asteroid collision damage, etc).
I actually would love to see low sec become more of a stepping stone for new players specifically by making pirates in low sec non-lethal but easily more capable of stealing whats in your cargo hold (via some sort of “transporter” based module), with some reputation and defensive (corcord) based changes it would make pvp in low sec more punishing if it was lethal in nature. this would help push these types of players into more role play pirate-eccentric corporations (robbing and so forth as opposed to murder)
We have to consider from a developer position that reducing the size of super powers and coalitions will upset a lot of leadership. Of this the biggest advocate against it would be goonswarm and the cfc as their tactics depend on larger numbers. However, this is still not impossible to do (forming coalitions). Actually, i would like alliances to be renamed to megacorporations and add another layer called “coalition”. you reduce size to increase the number of entities, and then provide support for their mindset to help soften the blow and change the direction. You’d actually find out that this approach is highly effective.
These sorts of changes bring about more content for everyone, from more pvp in null, to more mining options and encouragement for ow sec corporations to exist.
In my view, CCP seems lazy with fixing systems. The game is very much like a hole-ridden shirt that was devoured by moths. They need to stop with new content spam and shift to things like content-provision through correction.
Do you think blizzard listens to players when they say “no?”.
the truth is most companies do not. BDO for example would not be so heavily monetized ( as many games are).
The truth is this all comes down to a single individuals call. the only time we developers should react to a situation is when there is massive outcry that is not really beneficial to the game itself.
Foz-sov was a huge change to eve, and many do not like it. Did that stop the game from changing? No. Was it for the better? in some ways yes. Players will by nature resist change, because we as people by nature resist it.
As i said, a lot of game development has to deal with the psychology of these things.
Thus if players will always complain about change (for the most part anyways) we should just ignore them (when it comes to changing the game for the better) and only listen when they say “we need something for this or that”.
Its not a good idea to listen to players for system-design related topics unless they have some level of knowledge (professionally) on it. I would say even then we need to analyze what is being said.
This is a totally and utterly and insanely accurate idea of what a sandbox is.
A sandbox is a place people can play and build their own type of sandcastle. You have that without these overview features.
Our jobs as developers is to provide you with the tools (shovel, bucket, etc) to play in the sand. Like i said before, it is not acceptable for a bully to come and say “forget what your mom said, im the boss”.
**
THAT IS AGAINST SANDBOX GAMEPLAY AND SHOULD BE OUSTED IN A HEART BEAT.**
AGAIN ONLY POSSIBLE BECAUSE OF CORP/ALLIANCE TICKERS. If it was not for this feature, It would be insanely hard to manage larger, multiple fleet engagements on the battlefield. I am not against them from existing, but i think they should be highly discouraged (by making them a logistical hell/nightmare to pull off).
By the way, I speak a someone who is highly experienced as a FC. It would absolutely devastate coalitions and temp workings to do these simple change.
30 day plex was originally 150m, quickly jumped to 300m and is now 1.8b. Injectors follow a similar path. Again as i said if you wanted a catch up mechanic changing the way the skills research time grows or reducing the research requirement would of easily solved the problem.
Injectors, plex, etc are in the game for one reason, to make money. I believe that ccp has taken a dark route at making them intentionally raise the inflation in eve in conjunction to alpha state alterations to make it impossible to “isk-plex” their subscription. honestly they just need to make subscriptions allow multiple training by default, or increase the time to x10 and it (money) would not be an issue anymore .
Okay, so it’s clear that when you talk about inflation, you’re only talking about PLEX.
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Love him or hate him, at least we do have a CSM that comments here. I know few others do too, but not as often as Brisc.
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