Nerf Ganking Megathread

[Lucas_Kell]

@Dyver_Phycad

Which other game is like EVE with no PVP protection anywhere by design?

No game needs to be for the principle to apply.

@Dyver_Phycad

Then they quit a game that they do not enjoy and do not waste money and time into something that they won’t enjoy a month or 2 down the line either when the newbie protection runs out.

Problem solved then I guess. Go tell CCP not to worry about falling player numbers and losing money on the game, because you said it’s fine that people quit.

@Dyver_Phycad

Sadly, we have already been making big strides into that direction with more and more instanced PVE and PVP.

This is happening because CCP is desperate to find new players. Refusing to accept any compromise for new player experiences is certainly not going to make them any less desperate.

@Dyver_Phycad

And losing weeks of grinding 2 months or so later is different in which way?

Again, because they will have built up a buffer. I’m not sure how I’m losing you. Here, I’ll try to simplify it right down.

Player A. Plays for 2 weeks, gets killed loses everything, loss of progress: 100% of total gametime.
Player B. Plays for 10 weeks, gets killed, loses last two weeks of gains, loss of progress: 20% of total gametime.

@Dyver_Phycad

These people who cannot sustain to lose a mining frigate or PVE cruiser or a barge won’t have a different opinion on the loss 2 days in or 2 months in.

Of course they will, because someone 2 months in will have more experience and more built up assets to be able to more quickly recover. By your logic I’m 18 years in but should still feel the same loss if I lose a barge as a new player does.

@Dyver_Phycad

You think that because you and the OP approach this from a fundamentally flawed perspective.

No, I think this because I understand how trade hubs work and know it has sweet FA to do with the safety of the system the actual hub sits in.

@Dyver_Phycad

Newbies or any player (since this Green Lock is for all players and not just newbies) don’t need more protection than they already have.

Go argue that with CCP because their research clearly shows you are wrong, which is why they stated at fanfest they will be addressing this.

@Dyver_Phycad

They need to learn to survive in a risky environment.

Again, nonsense. That’s just you as an already established player, pretending that every players has to fight through a gauntlet to be permitted to stay, even though it’s highly likely you had no such restrictions placed on you when you joined.

What you want is to try to paint the game now as some hardcore experience so you can say “and I’m here so I must too be a hardcore elite!”. Goddamn phoneys the lot of you.

[Altara_Zemara]

@Lucas_Kell

How many ragequit the game because they don’t feel it’s worth the time to grind back into another one?

Hang on a minute. Your entire position is based on the supposition that you know the answer to that question. Otherwise you are inventing a problem, not responding to one.

[Lucas_Kell]

No it’s not.

I thought you blocked me. I knew I was too irresistable.

[Dyver_Phycad]

@Lucas_Kell

Go tell CCP not to worry about falling player numbers and losing money on the game, because you said it’s fine that people quit.

Player numbers fall because of completely different reasons than ganking a single digit number of new players every day.

@Lucas_Kell

Again, because they will have built up a buffer. I’m not sure how I’m losing you. Here, I’ll try to simplify it right down.

Player A. Plays for 2 weeks, gets killed loses everything, loss of progress: 100% of total gametime.
Player B. Plays for 10 weeks, gets killed, loses last two weeks of gains, loss of progress: 20% of total gametime.

You lose me because I do not think that this is how players think. This is based on past experiences with EVE players. If they cannot bear a cheap loss, they are very likely not a personality that can bear a bigger loss, regardless of how much buffer wealth they have – Especially since you can lose your shiny toy very quickly again after you replaced it if you go into the same areas of space where it’s risky to do things. The psychology principle that enough buffer makes someone less likely to ragequit is bogus. If a person cannot deal with a loss, it will not be able to, regardless of the level of wealth they have.

@Lucas_Kell

By your logic I’m 18 years in but should still feel the same loss if I lose a barge as a new player does.

That is not my logic. My logic is that you are a player that learned to play the game, learned to pay attention and be mindful of your surroundings. That is what the game and the players taught you, and you are a personality that can deal with it. Players who need additional protection to not quit this environment after losing a cheap frigate or barge (regardless if it’s their entire wealth or not) don’t have this personality and will only make the game worse with demands like these.

@Lucas_Kell

Go argue that with CCP because their research clearly shows you are wrong, which is why they stated at fanfest they will be addressing this.

Their research is not worth the energy to light up the digits on the screen that display it. Their research has also shown that their past umpteenth attempts at NPE were a success. They base their research on people who do not play EVE and thus do not understand EVE. Of course, that kind of research tells them that these people want this kind of stuff to feel safe and welcomed and will only stay if they are being kept safe from danger.

@Lucas_Kell

That’s just you as an already established player, pretending that every players has to fight through a gauntlet to be permitted to stay, even though it’s highly likely you had no such restrictions placed on you when you joined.

Mhhh, no, I probably did not. Back then, the game was in a much healthier state. Back then I could talk in my starter corp’s chat for hours and have a great conversation and get answers to my questions when I could not find them online. But I also see myself as someone who doesn’t shy away from the first bit of danger (evidenced by me mindlessly going into low sec because I thought it’s almost empty, so what are 2 guys in local going to do to me anyway?) Back then, suspect baiting was not prohibited in starter systems. Back then, niarja was a hellhole. Back then people used can flipping to trick miners everywhere into getting suspect timers so that they could be killed legally. Nothing of that exists anymore because CCP put a lot of restrictions on involuntary PVP. In a way, EVE then had much fewer safeties for newbies and clueless people than it has now.

@Lucas_Kell

What you want is to try to paint the game now as some hardcore experience

I don’t need to do that. CCP does it for me. They still market EVE as a hardcore, full loot, always on PVP game where you aren’t safe anywhere. If they stop advertising EVE like that, then I will get behind more safety measures for people … mostly because I will quit for real when it happens.

[Qia_Kare]

@Lucas_Kell

Absolutely. 100% could not agree more. I’d like this twice if I could. Hey, someone else like Ramonas post on my behalf.

Now you can’t say I’ve never done anything for you.

[Altara_Zemara]

@Daekarus_Prime

Finally, I’ve never stated that my question was deriving from any sort of grief/bad experience, I was just curious to know people’s opinions related to the hypothetical scenario I presented around a topic that I thought to be significant for new players.

Every time anyone raises this issue here, my response is that if they survived being a noob…why wouldn’t anyone else ?

There is a certain irony to people who clearly got past noobness, and thus proved it can be done, complaining in large numbers that things are too hard for noobs ! If you and I can manage it…why can’t anyone else ?

[Dyver_Phycad]

@Altara_Zemara

why can’t anyone else ?

Truth to be told: Not everyone is like you or Quake or me. Some people simply lack the necessary character traits to live in and find enjoyment in the kind of environment that EVE offers. It arguably requires quite a bit of effort and willpower not to get demoralized by a loss. Frankly, losses fester on my mind for a long time and I find the logistics of replacing a lost thing utterly frustrating.

However, the question is: What should change: The environment that was designed in a certain way to purport certain emotions and experience to accommodate players that do not want these emotions or experiences? Or the players towards the environment by accepting the specifically designed nature of the environment and whether they can really live and have fun in something that goes against what they want?

The environment has been changed a lot already to accommodate incompatible players to an extent. I think it’s time that the players change to accustom themselves to the environment again.

[Altara_Zemara]

@Dyver_Phycad

The psychology principle that enough buffer makes someone less likely to ragequit is bogus. If a person cannot deal with a loss, it will not be able to, regardless of the level of wealth they have.

Consider also the psychology of making life easier for noobs. Seemingly altruistic, but there’s a darker element that people may not even be aware of. The easier life is progressively made for noobs, the more the person ‘supporting’ the moves can boost their ego by feeling that they survived when things were harder. Make life sufficiently easy for noobs and you can ‘win’ Eve because it will never be that hard again. Sometimes I do wonder if this sort of attempt of people to close the gate behind them is the real cause…and the shining white nooby protector knight is all an illusion. Is all the ‘protect noobs’ really just gatekeeping.

[Lucas_Kell]

@Dyver_Phycad

Player numbers fall because of completely different reasons than ganking a single digit number of new players every day.

Again, CCP at the most recent fanfest stated there was a link between ganking and new player churn. If you have evidence that proves them wrong by all means present it.

@Dyver_Phycad

You lose me because I do not think that this is how players think. This is based on past experiences with EVE players. If they cannot bear a cheap loss, they are very likely not a personality that can bear a bigger loss, regardless of how much buffer wealth they have

How can you possibly know this? If they left because of a cheap loss, how can you possibly know how they would react had then not had that loss but had a loss much later?

The majority of MMOs soften new player losses specifically because players do think like that. Negative progress is far worse early on than it is later.

@Dyver_Phycad

That is not my logic. My logic is that you are a player that learned to play the game, learned to pay attention and be mindful of your surroundings.

But I came into the game during a time when ganking was pretty much non-existent for new players. I suffered no early losses that I didn’t directly instigate. If I started now and spent a couple of week grinding then lost everything then I’d chuck this game in the trash where it belongs, so by your logic if I lose anything now I should still ragequit. But I don’t. Why? Because I’m in a position to recover from significant losses now.

@Dyver_Phycad

Their research is not worth the energy to light up the digits on the screen that display it.

So I should ignore CCP stating what they are seeing in their data and believe some random pleb on the forum? What credentials can you offer that makes your word more worthwhile than CCPs word plus my own first hand experiences with new players?

@Dyver_Phycad

In a way, EVE then had much fewer safeties for newbies and clueless people than it has now.

It had fewer safeties but far fewer risks too. Early in my days I always used to see fleets of AFK iterons mining all day every day, no ganks because they weren’t worth it. Now though hunting newbies is pretty much a sport and you look at the systems between career hubs and you see kills pretty much every day where gankers are just hanging out there waiting for newbies to pass back and forth. Go look at systems between the Caldari career agents like Isanamo for example.

@Dyver_Phycad

don’t need to do that. CCP does it for me. They still market EVE as a hardcore, full loot, always on PVP game where you aren’t safe anywhere.

They do but anyone that’s played it knows that’s false. Once you get established it’s basically hello kitty in space. There aren’t many MMOs where it’s so insanely easy to be successful at whatever you choose to do. I think that’s what appeals to some people, this game requires very little actual skill, it just requires you to know about some mechanics.

@Dyver_Phycad

Truth to be told: Not everyone is like you or Quake or me. Some people simply lack the necessary character traits to live in and find enjoyment in the kind of environment that EVE offers. I

This is part of the above You’re not some elite ubergamer because you play EVE. You happened to not have too hard a time getting into the game and you enjoy playing it, that’s all. You’re not superior to someone who gets ganked early on and decides they can’t be bothered to repeat their progress.

@Altara_Zemara

The easier life is progressively made for noobs, the more the person ‘supporting’ the moves can boost their ego by feeling that they survived when things were harder.

Literally the opposite is true. The game was vastly more easy for newbies when I joined.

[Vokan_Narkar]

@Ferdiad_Silver

One thing that would happen is all the AFK miners chewing away at veldspar would descend upon these 1.0 systems so they can have their orcas earn them isk while they do their day jobs.

It is already happening btw. Not on that big scale fortunately and gankers do sometimes kill such Orcas even in 1.0, but it takes many resources and they are then even accused to breaking rules of no ganking in starter/career systems.

I am sure that this being already the case will be used as an argument why we should definitely do this nonsense that OP is promoting, but you are right, remove safety in 1.0 and these systems will be out of ore in hour after downtime…

[Lucas_Kell]

@Vokan_Narkar

remove safety in 1.0 and these systems will be out of ore in hour after downtime…

So why would that not be the case now? It takes significant firepower to bring down things like orcas in a 1.0 so why are they not already stipped every single day?

And if they were stripped every day, why should anyone care? The total amount of ore is tiny and would decrease because belts take multiple respawns to recover from being mined out. If you care about people mining loads you should be concerned with ice systems, particularly those with multiple spawns.

[Vokan_Narkar]

@Lucas_Kell

So why would that not be the case now? It takes significant firepower to bring down things like orcas in a 1.0 so why are they not already stipped every single day?

They actually are. But it takes a while as the amount of veterans mining in 1.0/0.9 in Orcas or with multiboxing fleet is not that high right now. Partially also because of the gankers, because many of those who did that in past lost their Orca or Mackinaw in these systems anyway so they realized that not even that makes them perfectly safe and stopped doing that. Second reason is that there is no plagioclase and the belts are quite on low volume compared to lower security status systems.

@Lucas_Kell

And if they were stripped every day, why should anyone care?

These players are denying the resources to those they “belong” to - new players who are supposed to mine for missions in these systems or who lives there as they are protected there, but not even 1jump outside of that system.

Anyone mining with a multiboxing fleet of barges/exhumers or Orcas is griefing new players.

[Lucas_Kell]

@Vokan_Narkar

They actually are. But it takes a while as the amount of veterans mining in 1.0/0.9 in Orcas or with multiboxing fleet is not that high right now.

But why would it not be high now if it would suddenly shoot up if they were perfectly safe? The chance of being ganked in a 1.0 is shockingly slim if you haven;t annoyed a ganker and you’re not bling fit because the cost to punch through that much tank is far higher than other targets.

@Vokan_Narkar

Second reason is that there is no plagioclase and the belts are quite on low volume compared to lower security status systems.

And this right here is the main thing. Even if it were perfectly safe the gains are too low.

@Vokan_Narkar

These players are denying the resources to those they “belong” to - new players who are supposed to mine for missions in these systems or who lives there as they are protected there, but not even 1jump outside of that system.

New players tend to get spawned belts for any of the guided mining. I’m sure if CCP felt it was an issue though they could enforce a rule that you can’t mine in starter systems, just like they enforce a rule than you can’t gank newbies there.

@Vokan_Narkar

Anyone mining with a multiboxing fleet of barges/exhumers or Orcas is griefing new players.

Like, anyone anywhere multibox mining is griefing? The russain bot miner mining ice in Niballe for several years is griefing new players? Leave it out, he’s the reason I get cheap fuel.

[Dyver_Phycad]

@Lucas_Kell

Again, CCP at the most recent fanfest stated there was a link between ganking and new player churn. If you have evidence that proves them wrong by all means present it.

CCP stated that ganking helps player retention in the previous fanfest. Now they say it harms player retention. See what I mean with that their research is worthless?

@Lucas_Kell

If I started now and spent a couple of week grinding then lost everything then I’d chuck this game in the trash where it belongs, so by your logic if I lose anything now I should still ragequit. But I don’t. Why? Because I’m in a position to recover from significant losses now.

A couple of weeks protection and then you still lose everything because your protection ended puts you in the same spot.
And it’s still not my logic that you should quit. People who can deal with this kind of environment won’t quit because of a loss, early or later. But if you keep insisting that you are one of these people after all, despite having made it in EVE for years, I start to think that you are just a fluke.

@Lucas_Kell

The majority of MMOs soften new player losses specifically because players do think like that. Negative progress is far worse early on than it is later.

EVE does the same in newbie starter systems and career agent systems. That’s akin to the starter areas in other games. Other than that, EVE is purported as lawless, dystopian space. If people get ganked too often in systems adjacent to starter systems (I checked Ekura next door to Amsen and say a number of dead Ventures thanks to Safety., but I also see days without any kills or only NPC kills.), CCP should do a better job at explaining what happens and how to pay more attention.

One could argue that CCP could add Safety. as red contact by default for newbies and explain to them why this is the case and what they need to do when they see a red in local. Instead of locking people into green safety (by the way, it would not work in Josameto anyway if the 1.0 Green were a thing), CCP should introduce people to the existing tools to stay alive and navigate the treacherous environment.

@Lucas_Kell

You’re not superior to someone who gets ganked early on and decides they can’t be bothered to repeat their progress.

I don’t claim to be superior. I state solely that these people won’t make it in EVE anyway. If they get demoralized by a cheap loss early on, they will always get demoralized and frustrated by losses. It doesn’t matter if they had a day or “a few weeks” to build up a buffer. If they cannot deal with losses early on, they don’t learn the most valuable lessons to survive in EVE.

[Vokan_Narkar]

Lmao. You even managed to make 5 quotes from short post like that.

When I saw there is a new thread and it already has 100 replies within hours of creation I knew it is you again.

You are spamming these forums really hard lately. I am not engaging in this ■■■■. You can have your last word if you need it. I am blocking you from now on because these nonsense that you are spouting lately are damaging my health.

Also, since when is Niballe 1.0 ? LOL just what the hell are you smoking?

[Lucas_Kell]

@Dyver_Phycad

CCP stated that ganking helps player retention in the previous fanfest. Now they say it harms player retention.

Sure, but then based on what Rise stated about how he gathered that data it was flawed from the getgo. That doesn’t mean their data is inherently wrong and you’ve offered no reason for me to accept your views over theirs, particularly since your views run counter to MMO research in general too.

@Dyver_Phycad

A couple of weeks protection and then you still lose everything because your protection ended puts you in the same spot.

If you say so.

@Dyver_Phycad

EVE does the same in newbie

Which you immediately have to leave even just following the career agents, hence gankers hanging out in systems newbies are directed through as part of career agent missions.

@Dyver_Phycad

I don’t claim to be superior. I state solely that these people won’t make it in EVE anyway.

I mean, you kinda do. When you say stuff like “Not everyone is like you or Quake or me. Some people simply lack the necessary character traits…” that’s you claiming superiority.

@Vokan_Narkar

You are spamming these forums really hard lately. I am not engaging in this ■■■■.

How fickle your affections are. Just the other day you were cheering on my responses talking about P2W. Then it seems by disagreeing with your ganker buddies I’m now the enemy.

@Vokan_Narkar

Also, since when is Niballe 1.0 ? LOL just what the hell are you smoking?

I didn’t say it is, but when you’re talking about miners raking in huge amounts of resource, it’s those types of miners you should be more concerned about, but conveniently you never are. My suspicion is that most of the major multibox miners in highsec are operated by gankers.

[Arya_Yeshe]

@Vokan_Narkar

When I saw there is a new thread and it already has 100 replies within hours of creation I knew it is you again.

I blocked that guy along time ago, just to make the threads readable

[Vokan_Narkar]

Well I think he won anyway. I completely lost my will to even read these threads that swollen 200+ replies over night… Might have been his goal from the very beginning.

AG propaganda is using every petty tricks they can.

[Scipio_Artelius]

@Lucas_Kell

It’s not carrying cargo that’s the real issue though

According to CCP, the griefing issue is where there is no obvious payoff to the ganker and the new player with no cargo was the specific example used. If a new player is carrying something of value, then there would clearly be a potential payoff for the ganker.

None of us might agree with that, but it is what they outlined at Fanfest.

[Arya_Yeshe]

@Scipio_Artelius

According to CCP, the griefing issue is where there is no obvious payoff to the ganker and the new player with no cargo was the specific example used. If a new player is carrying something of value, then there would clearly be a potential payoff for the ganker.

It’s kinda going to World of Warcraft’s starter area and ganking the level 1 players trying to kill a boar.

Brainstorm:

• accidents may happen, there is not time to read the bio when you are landing on a target
• I have more than enough 1 day old characters buying orcas, marauders, huge amount of materials from me

So… how and where do we draw the line? How CCP will pull this off?